Does Greece have ottoman traces???

Edited by Hellios - 12-Nov-2006 at 15:07

Ooooh chill out guys, no need to take it to heart    

The title of this thread was

"Does Greece have Ottoman traces"

I just added a few points for those who happen to be in a case of denial, if you have a problem with the sources criticise them, don't shoot the messenger.

There are contributions Turks have made, Greeks have made, Arabs have made and so on, it seems some people have a problem accepting this reality.

I haven't personally insulted anybody, attacked any nations collectively and havn't violated any forum rules, unlike some are doing towards myself.

Hey, as they say the truth hurts.

Elinn
Sorry to break your b*lls
That's bullsh*t, that yoghurt is a Turkish concoction.

Its funny that this kind of vulgar language is not criticised while stating a basic fact that eating nuts and fruits doesn't require culinary skill is deemed an "insult". Look, if you don't believe me, go to a garden and pick fruit from the Tree's or plants, its easy, jeeez.


    
    
    
    
    

Edited by Bulldog - 13-Nov-2006 at 09:32

[QUOTE=Bulldog]Ooooh chill out guys, no need to take it to heart    

The title of this thread was

"Does Greece have Ottoman traces"

I just added a few points for those who happen to be in a case of denial, if you have a problem with the sources criticise them, don't shoot the messenger.

There are contributions Turks have made, Greeks have made, Arabs have made and so on, it seems some people have a problem accepting this reality.

I haven't personally insulted anybody, attacked any nations collectively and havn't violated any forum rules, unlike some are doing towards myself.

Hey, as they say the truth hurts.

Elinn
Sorry to break your b*lls
That's bullsh*t, that yoghurt is a Turkish concoction.

Its funny that this kind of vulgar language is not criticised while stating a basic fact that eating nuts and fruits doesn't require culinary skill is deemed an "insult". Look, if you don't believe me, go to a garden and pick fruit from the Tree's or plants, its easy, jeeez.


  I'll tell you what's bu....it. It's the fact that you essentially deny that a Greko-Roman based civilization existed in Anatolia for a couple thousand years. The Greek was a vibrant element in the communities of western Anatolia untill the '20's. Why does this undermine the "Turkishness" of today's area in your oppinion? Your pseudo-concilliatory attitude is condescending in its tone and is an attempt to quickly "bury" the issue after you think a smart comment is made on your behalf.
No one denies the Ottoman roots of Greece. And arguing about the baklava and the yogurt is silly.  Just get the chip off of your shoulder.

Konstantinius
I'll tell you what's bu....it.

Don't tell me, I didn't use the term

Konstantinius
It's the fact that you essentially deny that a Greko-Roman based civilization existed in Anatolia for a couple thousand years.

Do I, could you please show where in the thread I mention this or what it has to do with this topic. This is just an attempted diversion of the actual post.


8 AD Romans had conquered most of today's Turkey
116 AD they had conquered all of what is today Turkey

Romans had a thousand year legacy over what is today Turkey.

Also let's not forget the Lydians, Hitite's, Assyrians, Lykians, Phrygians, Galatians, Trojans, Cimmerians, Babylonians, Persians..........

They also had states, had conquered parts and inhabitted parts of what is today Turkey.

The Ionians also had coastal colonies.



The Greek was a vibrant element in the communities of western Anatolia untill the '20's.

And so were the Turks of Greece

Why does this undermine the "Turkishness" of today's area in your oppinion?

It doesn't and I never have stated this, I don't know were you get these paranoid accusations from.


No one denies the Ottoman roots of Greece.

Some do, I was just replying to them.    
    

Edited by Bulldog - 14-Nov-2006 at 07:33

Originally posted by Bulldog Konstantinius It's the fact that you essentially deny that a Greko-Roman based civilization existed in Anatolia for a couple thousand years. 8 AD Romans had conquered most of today's Turkey 116 AD they had conquered all of what is today Turkey Romans had a thousand year legacy over what is today Turkey. Also let's not forget the Lydians, Hitite's, Assyrians, Lykians, Phrygians, Galatians, Trojans, Cimmerians, Babylonians, Persians.......... They also had states, had conquered parts and inhabitted parts of what is today Turkey. The Ionians also had coastal colonies.

Did u miss the hellinistic era ?
Kingdom of Pergamus, the Seleucids, the Ptolemeys(south) ,the hellinised barbarian kingdoms of inner Anatolia.
the fact that Greek language replaced all local languages,and was the only spoken in Anatolian peninsula when turcic tribes arrived.
1000 years of Byzantine dominance in the area.
The common turkish theory of "Ionians" that held some coastal cities of the West,belongs to the turkish schools not to History

Anyway,i can see here an ultimate battle to defend turkish national pride using baklava !
I guess u could find some things which Turkish culture contributes to Civilization.
At least u use baklava (which is quiet tasty)
,many others use the "super-human turkish bravery" and the "super heroes turks" and have contaminated this interesting forum with their nationalistic silly illusions.


Edited by Brainstorm - 16-Nov-2006 at 06:08

Originally posted by EGET�RK Does Greece have ottoman traces???

Brainstorm

Originally posted by Bulldog Elinn Sorry to break your b*lls That's bullsh*t, that yoghurt is a Turkish concoction. Its funny that this kind of vulgar language is not criticised while stating a basic fact that eating nuts and fruits doesn't require culinary skill is deemed an "insult".

you must have a very low vulgarity threshold.. that was tame.

I think it's vulgar you never spell my name right, but do you hear me kicking up a fuss or getting offended?!?! lol

Originally posted by Bulldog Great for them but if you think Kebabs and Doner is merely skewering meat your again mistaken. There are many type's of Kebab, there are many types of Doner, the preperation, ingrediants, cooking method etc are very important. You can't just cut meat and stick it on a skewer, it would be almost in-edible as the fats and muscle tissues make it to tough. Turkic people had mastered this art due to their nomadic lifestyles in the Steppes were there was an abundance of lifestock.

Yer like that was the case throughout the ages. You think the Turks or Ottomans were the only ones "developing" and "refining" their culinary habits???. The ancients had enough recipes to substantiate cookbooks (eg Mithaikos, Archestratus). As for 'livestock', I don't think that was a 'privilege' reserved for the Nomads alone. 
Oil (along with herbs) is/was an integral part of meat prep/cooking/marinading etc.. and I would've thought the Greeks were enjoying this luxury well before the Turk Nomads came along.

Originally posted by Bulldog They had no knowledge of Yoghurt and White Cheese.

So now we've gone from Cheese (in general) to white cheese..
How quickly you change your tune.



Byzantine cuisine was marked by a merger of Greek and Roman gastronomy....
.....Byzantine people produced various cheeses, including anthotiro or kefalintzin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Cuisine

(anthotiro = soft white cheese).

    ... and he milked the sheep and bleating goats, let half of the white milk coagulate and set it away in tightly woven baskets for settling and firming
    - Homer, The Odyssey

Synopsis:  Siren Feasts: History of Food and Gastronomy in Greece (Hardcover) by Andrew Dalby 1996.
Cheese, wine, honey and olive oil - four of Greece's best known contributions to culinary culture - were already well known 4,000 years ago. Remains of honeycombs and of cheeses have been found under the volcanic ash of the Santorini eruption of 1627 BC.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Siren-Feasts-History-Gastronomy-Greece/dp/0415116201


This recipe is from the oldest known Greek cookbook, Art of Cookery, by Mithaecus.
It had a great effect on the foods of Athens and the Greek provinces in the fifth century B.C.

1/4 cup plain dried bread crumbs
3 ounces feta cheese, crumbled
1 tb. olive oil
1 tb. minced fresh dill
1 tb. minced fresh chives
Salt and freshly milled pepper
4 sea bass fillets, about 7 ounces each 
http://www.usatoday.com/travel/destinations/2004-08-12-greek-food-main_x.htm

Originally posted by Bulldog Yoghurt was introduced into Europe by Turkic Nomads migrating into Europe in 2nd century AD. Galen knew about it after 2nd Century AD

Well explain Herodotus' knowledge of it in the 5th century BC then?

Originally posted by Bulldog ---The Horizon Cookbook and Illustrated History of Eating and Drinking though the Ages, [American Heritage:New York] 1968 (p. 690) This is from 1968 and used what was available then, the latest research prooves otherwise

Well, if you're going to be like that, then your cherished source,

---Oxford Companion to Food, Alan Davidson [Oxford University Press:Oxford] 1999 (p. 299)

will come under fire for being a little outdated also.  It's not exactly the "latest" research now is it!
So much can be unearthed in 7 years.

Originally posted by Bulldog The Turks had been in the middle east since the 8th Century. Your quote completely supports what I have been stating.

Now hang on a sec. Weren't you the one who was saying that the Baklava had been refined in the kitchens of the Ottoman Empire??  We're talking 13th century, and that;

the paper-thin pastry we know today was probably an innovation of the Ottoman sultan's kitchens at Topkapi palace in Istanbul. ---Oxford Companion to Food, Alan Davidson [Oxford University Press:Oxford] 1999 (p. 299) http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodpies.html#pastry

So what did the Seljuks have to do with it? 
(ps I like how it states "probably").

also from the source above

The idea of making the sheets paper thins is a later development.

Originally posted by Bulldog Phyllo today is "Yufka", Turks had an obession with rolling the thinest dough possible, my source above explains this in detail. Turks had this dish when they were in Eastern Turkistan/ modern Xinjiang province.

Bit of a contradiction there. 
And here's more.

"the dish is of Turkish origin, as the name has an affiliation with oklava (Turkish for rolling pin) that�s used in the preparation"

"pastry called Baki pakhlavasi (Baku-style baklava) using ordinary noodle paste instead of filo"

So which one is it? 

Then we have these to pick from;

The word baklava itself is derived from Arabic بقلاوة baqlāwaḧ, based on an Arabic word for nuts.

"Baklava the famous Turkish pastry is, in fact, of Christian origins...baki-halva translates as 'Lenten sweet' and originally baklava had forty sheets of pastry dough, one for each of the days of Lent. The Armenian Christians are believed to have first brought it to Constantinople where it was quickly taken over by the seraglio..."

Originally posted by Bulldog Istanbul was introduced to coffee in 1543 during the reign of Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent by �zdemir Pasha. There was a Coffee drink already in existance in Ethiopia and Yemen.

Originally posted by Mortaza It is sad, when greeks are talking about greek culture at anatolia, they have no idea aboıut that cultures.

What makes you think I have no idea about these regions and the culture that has pre-existed there.  Living in the country I do, I get to mix with a substantial number of Greek immigrants and refugees (and their offspring) who stem from all regions of Greece and Asia Minor, but predominantly Pontians (and from a variety of places in Pontus, mind you).  So I wouldn't say my knowledge is limited when it comes to their heritage, traditions, customs, cuisine, etc.

Originally posted by Mortaza wrong, Infact I am from that area, we use yufka but yufka itself is alien to blacksea cousine. Infact at blacksea even breads were from corn not from wheat. Blacksea cousine consist of corn,barley   Anyone who have general idea about blacksea cousine will know, Yufka is alien to that culture, and I should add my village know pontus langauge, so It is effected pontus culture more.

Now this is where you are wrong. 
You obviously don't know the agricultural history of the region (Pontus) in which you live in well enough. 
Hopefully the following info/quotes from various sources will shed some light.

"the agricultural economy was supported chiefly by wheat, corn, barley, rye"

~These Greek cities, mostly established by Milesian colonizers, were for a long period good neighbors of the Scythians and other indigenous peoples. Trade consisted primarily of exchange of agricultural products (especially grain) for metal objects and luxuries.
~The northern and western coastal regions were fertile, the most developed farming must have been in the Phasis plain in Colchis. The foremost crop was grain (wheat, barley, millet); the north Pontic littoral, the Crimea, and the Dobrogea were the �granaries� of the ancient world
~Herodotus (7.147.2-�3) portrays Xerxes as he saw Greek ships transporting grain through the Hellespont near Abydus.
http://www.iranica.com/newsite/articles/v4f3/v4f3a053.html

�Einkorn� wheat (Triticum monococcum / μονόκοκο) is the oldest form of wheat, which was cultivated in Pontus,  Flourishing in Trabezon where it was also exported.

"the bread was made with wheat or a mixture of wheat and barley"

"grains/cereals where used in the form cracked wheat (κορκότου), pasta (μακαρίνας) and flour (αλεύρων).

"due to Pontus having fertile land, there was an abundance and variety of agricultural products and cattle.  Richly developed trade that included - fish, corn/maize, barley, wheat, oats, flax, pulses/legumes, rice, hazelnuts, walnuts, chestnuts, cherries (Kerasus), apples, pears, nectarines, peaches, olives, oil, figs, grapes, pomegranates, tobacco (from Pafra and Samsun), unlimited supply of cheese, butter, honey and eggs.
The abundance of the farming produce, led the women of Pontus to develop various recipes which resulted in the combining of dairy and products of wheat, corn-flour, barley, cracked wheat.  There was a preference for soups with main ingredients consisting of flour, corn, wheat and barley.

There was a vast array of dairy production in Pontus - different types of yoghurt (low-fat, no-fat, creamy, drinking), milk, cream, curds, buttermilk, curds, whey, you name it, and of superior quality apparently.  (οξύγαλα; υλιστόν; πασκιτάν;ταν)

Here's a pic of the Pontian yufka. (yioufkades / γιοχαδες )
Which are used to make cheese pies.



This is part 1 of the preparation process, where they are stored as dry pastry sheets.
Part 2, they are moistened with water, then placed on a hot grill and buttered and cheese
is placed amongst the layers.

Originally posted by Bulldog The arrival of the Turk's bought "Eriste" (similar to noodle's), "Manti" similar to raviolli and other such dishes.

Evriste - These are another specialty of the Black Sea Greeks, and are like very dry tagliatelle (without the eggs).
http://www.gourmed.gr/greek-food/show.asp?gid=9&nodeid=78&arid=3722

Evriste and Manti is a Pontian delicacy.

If this was an Ottomon creation, then why is it that only the Pontian Greeks make them???
Wouldn't it stand to reason, given that the Greek cuisine was supposedly influenced by the Turks/Ottomans, that "ALL" the Greeks no matter where, would be familiar with it?

Originally posted by borudjin the national costumes and the music of all balkan peoples from armenians to greeks to serbs are almost identical. why? guess who dominated all these peoples for centuries. if all these peoples have similar almost identical music and dress its obvious they were derived from the osmans, which derived their dress and music from central asia(kipchak).

First of all, there are "so" many diverse "regional" costumes of Greece, so where's this resemblance you're talking about?


As for Greek folk music.

Musicological research has unearthed valuable evidence linking modern Greek folk song to ancient Greek music. It is not feasible to compare these musical types due to the influence of Christianity. Also, there is a substantial difference between ancient Greek prosody (quantitive), a recitation which clearly marked the difference between long and short syllables; thanks to its vowels, each word had an elementary rhythmic form as well as a rough melodic fine. In contrast, modem Greek is based on a tonic prosody (strong accentuation); its words simply have accentuated or non-accentuated syllables. Despite the change from quantitative to tonic prosody, the ancient Greek rhythmical formations live on in modem Greek folk melody.
The researches of Professors Thrasyvoulos Georgiadis and Samuel Baud-Bovy demonstrate that the 7/8 time, found throughout Greece, in none other than the heroic hexameter in which the Homeric epics were recited.
The word syrtos is known to have existed as early as the first century A.D., from an ancient Greek inscription. In addition, dance formation representations on vases, statuettes and terracottas show dancers linked either hand-on-shoulder or hand-in-hand with the instrumentalist in the center
http://www.helleniccomserve.com/musichistory.html

The Greek folk song can be divided into two cycles, the akritic and
klephtic. The akritic was created between the ninth and tenth centuries A.D. and expressed the life and struggles of the akrites (frontier guards) of the Byzantine empire, the most well known being the stories associated with Digenes Akritas. The klephtic cycle came into being between the late Byzantine period and the start of the Greek War of Independence struggle in 1821. The klephtic cycle, together with historical songs, paraloghes, love songs, wedding songs, songs of exile and dirges express the life of the Greeks. There is an indivisible unity between the Greek people's struggles for freedom, their joys and sorrow and attitudes towards love and death.
Folk songs refer to all songs created before the 1821 War of
Independence, which belong to the akritic and klephtic cycle.
The same two terms apply to Greek musical instruments. The lira, laouto (lute), tambouras, gaida (bagpipe), zoumas (shawm), daouli (drum) belong to the category of folk instruments. The violin, clarinet and guitar belong in the popular category.
Greek folk song, either diatonic or chromatic, like Byzantine music, is monophonic and modal in structure. In other words, without any harmonic accompaniment its melodies are based on a different sequence of intervals than that of the major and minor modes of Western music.
http://www.helleniccomserve.com/musichistory.html

Some of the characteristics of Greek folk costumes can be traced back to elements in ancient Hellenic and Byzantine costumes

Originally posted by Bulldog The OUD is not tradtional Middle Eastern either, these have been commongly used in China, Iran and Central Asia since ancient times, the Iranian BARBAT,  the Chinease have the PI-PA.

The roots of the musical instrument Oud, can be found through time,
before 3500 years in Persia, where it was called Barbat.  This
instrument was the same with the one that ancient Egyptians used in
Pharaoh times.  This was named from the Arabians Al Oud, which means wood and specifically thin wood.
http://www.oud.gr/about_oud.htm




Pandouris or pandourion, also called trichord because it had three
strings, is the first fretted instrument known, forerunner of the
various families of lutes worldwide.
Source of our knowledge about this instrument is the Mantineia marble
(4th cent BC, now exhibited at Athens Archaeological Museum) depicting the mythical contest between Apollo and Marsyas, where Pandouris is being played by a muse seated on a rock.
http://homoecumenicus.com/ancient_instruments.htm

the statue stated above is displayed on here, i think.
http://www.oud.gr/gravure.htm

You think the Greeks couldn't develop the bouzouki or baglama
from this prototype ?
And from what I've read the greek baglama is nothing like the turkish
one. 

Originally posted by Bulldog Sure they were and the poor native folk of Asia Minor were enslaved by Greek colonialists into identifying themselves as Greeks.

Greeks were not in the business of enslaving, more like "others" wanting to enslave "her".
They weren't "marauders", after all, they weren't branded with such a nick-name, unlike some and their counterparts .  And while i'm at it, they weren't renowned for being 'agressors', invaders or conquerors.. When it comes to crimes against humanity, the Greeks have a clean slate .  So they colonised.. oohhh those dastardly greeks *rolleyes*.  They settled on land that was free for all and when there were no defined borders.  They were not akin to taking over people's homes by force, expelling or exterminating people from their ancestral lands and parading other's property and establishments as their own.  Wherever the greeks traversed, they didn't leave a trail of blood in their tracks, but glorious civilisations.

Human colonisation is not to be confused with colonialism or imperialism, as colonisation is a broader category, encompassing all large-scale emigrations of an established population to a 'new' location, and expansion of their civilisation into this area.
Classical Period - In ancient times, maritime nations such as the city-states of Greece often established colonies. These appear to have been more benign, emphasising the farming of uninhabited land. In classical times, land suitable for farming was often claimed by migratory "barbarian tribes" who lived by hunting and gathering. To ancient civilised people, the land simply appeared vacant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonisation

Originally posted by akritas " Maybe"  you are right because I remember the Turkish quider  in Ephessus that tried to explain me that the Hellenistic period started in 4th cent  BC and was not Hellenic.   Or a Roman bridge of the 4th BC when is known that the Roman apeared after 200 years!!!

That reminds me of a travel show I was watching on tv about Turkey.  And the Turkish guide didn't mention Greek once.  Everything was Roman.  Even Pergamom and Ephesus.
I mean sure they had been Roman cities at one stage, but what were they "beforehand" or "initially"????
Wasn't it the Greeks who built these cities from scratch?
Even Bulldog's last post clearly shows how hard it is to say the "G" word where it counts. 
Like what have we ever done wrong ????
(And just for the record, Ionians didn't see themselves anything "less" than Greek)
Or the other label he would use (as do others, I've noticed) was simply Byzantine.  Which to the uneducated or ignorant could seem like a total foreign race therefore disassociating any Greek characteristic.

But you know what.  "Byzantine" gives the Greeks glory and honour too whether you like it or not.  It's a big part of the Greek's ethnic conscience and cultural fibre.

Have a read at what some foreign writers had to say about it.

[quote]A nation's self-image and self-understanding is shaped by the history it remembers and the culture that has molded its ethos and character from generation to generation. 
The memory of ancient Greece, from the beginning of its history down to the Christian era, was very much alive in the Byzantine Empire. 
Even though for legal and political reasons the inhabitants of the Empire called themselves Romans (Romaioi, Romioi), the history they remembered and the history they studied was that of the
ancient Greeks - Herodotos, Thucydides, Polybios, Plutarch[os], the image they possessed of themselves had been molded by the language they spoke [Greek], the literature they read - Homer,
Hesiod, Sophocles, Plato - and the physicians and scientists they studied - Hippocrates, Archimides, Hero, Ptolemeos, Strabo and many more - from ancient times to their times.

It is for this reason that Hellenology rather than Byzantinology more accurately expresses the nature of the Byzantine Empire's people and culture as the Hungarian scholar Gy Moravesik writes.

The Byzantine Empire was no less than a continuation of the Greek world as it had evolved after the age of Alexander the Great.  Even from as early as the reign of Constantine the Great we can identify the Byzantine Empire as the Greek Empire of the middle centuries.


The importance of philosophy and Hellenic ideals as a prodromos (forerunner) to Christ was beautifully developed by Justin the philosopher and martyr and others.  Clement of Alexandria (153-217)
writes that before the coming of Christ "philosophy was necessary to the Greek for righteousness," and it was given to them by God, "for God is the cause of all good things." 

Influential Church fathers such as the Cappadocians, the Alexandrians, the Antiochians and many ecclesiastical writers, including hagiologists, had been nurtured in an intellectual climate that had respect for both Christian faith and Greek learning. 

Revealed truth in Scripture, and revealed truth through human logos, were perceived as two interrelated principles and God-given gifts to humankind.  It is for this reason that they relied on Scriptural passages and Greek educational proof texts.
St. Basil urged young students to study Homer because Homer's epics are full of ethical instructions that lead to the truth and virtue.  The interrelationship between Hellenism and Christianity gave birth to what is called Christian Hellenism (Glanville Downey, Francis Dvornik, George Florovsky and several more).

Biblical and patristic instruction and ancient Greek thought were integrated into a system of belief, ethos, and customs which determined its continuum throughout the Byzantine millennium. 
They spoke the language of Plato and cited Greek poets and philosophers and were at home among Greek ideas, rhetoric, ethics; it was their belief that Greek philosophy was the instrument of God for an ecumenical appeal of Christianity. 
The ancient Church adopted classical culture as a new spiritual force uniting the Greek and Roman world with the religious impulse of the Hebrew world.  In the process of Hellenism was Christianized and
Christianity was Hellenized.  As history and literature professor Ihor Sevcenko, a Ukrainian-American leading Byzantine scholar has put it:

 "Hellenism vanquished by Christianity conquered its victor in turn".

It is well known that the so-called "Byzantines" defined themselves as Romans (citizens of the Roman Empire). 
After the edict of Caracallus all free people of the Empire became Romans.  Other nations and peoples such as Latins, Franks, Germans, Russians, Armenians, Georgians, Khazarian Jews thought of the
"Byzantines" as Greeks or Yunani, Yavani, Yoyn (IONIANS).  The "Byzantines" called their state "Kingdom of the Romans" (Basileion ton Rhomaion) but others described it as Graecia (Greece), the Greek Empire, or Yunastan, Yavan, Yawan (Ionia).

Aristotle, Apollodoros, the Chronicle of Paros and other ancient sources tell us that the name Greek is older than Hellene.  It was occasionally used by the Byzantines themselves for self-identification,
but more frequently it was used to designate the learning, language, and culture of their Empire. 
With some exceptions, for most of the foreigners the whole Byzantine Empire, including Asia Minor, was Greece, and its citizens Greeks.  In determining the Greek national character, outsiders made no distinction between pagan and Christian Greeks, between the Greeks of ancient times and the "Byzantines" of the Middle Ages.

To Benjamin of Tudela, the Spaniard Jew who traveled to the East in the 12th century, the whole of the Empire, including the Balkan Peninsula and Asia Minor, is Greece.
Constantinople "is the capital of the whole land of Javan, which is called Greece." 
In the eyes of Benjamin, the Byzantines were not warlike.  Instead, for their wars, usually defensive, they hired among all nations warriors called barbarians to fight against the Sultan of the Seljuks, "for the natives are not warlike."  Lawless people from the hills of Wallachia despoiled and ravaged "the land of Greece."  While those lawless people refrained from killing Jews, "they killed the Greeks."  Benjamin adds that in Constantinople is the church of Santa Sophia and
the seat of the Patriarch of the Greeks, "since the Greeks do not obey the Pope of Rome." 
He calls the whole Empire, including the Balkan Peninsula and Asia Minor, "the Empire of Greece." 
The Greeks are described as very rich, possessing of gold and precious stones, and dressed in garments of silk with gold embroidery; they ride horses and look like princes.
"Indeed, the land [of the Greeks] is very rich in all cloth stuffs, and in bread, meat, and wine.  Wealth like that of Constantinople is not to be found in the whole world.  Here also are men learned in all the books of the Greeks, and they eat and drink, every man under his vine and his fig-tree."

"Only the highest praise could do justice to the importance of the Greeks.  Even excessive admiration is not infrequently expressed" by Arabs in the words of Franz Rosenthal, a leading scholar of Islam and
the Arabs.  He cites Arabic sources.

For the Arabs, the Byzantine rulers were Greeks, not Roman, and "Greek rulers were always building level roads through difficult territory, filling hollows, cutting through high mountains and banishing fear of them.  They were always constructing various kinds of bridges, erecting strong walls, building aqueducts and diverting rivers� They were concerned with science and medicine." 

Other Arabic sources describe the Byzantine state as Rum but they consider its people and culture as Ighritsi (Greek).
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8144.asp

Originally posted by Spartakus Let me repeat  myself again.Are any Byzantine-Hellenic traces in Ottoman Turks?

most definitely


 

Edited by Ellin - 16-Nov-2006 at 13:38

[QUOTE=Bulldog]Elinn
What he is trying to say is that Ottoman cuisine has various influences from  OTHERS who were also developing and refining their own cuisine. You don't seem so dumb as to not understand the question, so the only other explanation is that you PURPOSEDLY evade the point; you can't EVEN, EVER mention that the Turks EVER inherited ANYTHING  from ANYONE else.  It's, like,  you're going to be struck bumbfounded or something upon even admittance of the fact. THAT IS THE POINT.