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Does Greece have ottoman traces???
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EGETRK 
Consul 
Joined: 16-Sep-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 300 |
 Topic: Does Greece have ottoman traces???Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 15:24 |
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for exemple:Esena Mono(original version)-Kaiti Garbi is like an Ottoman Song with its tone and instruments...İts that you want to say Patrinos??
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The lands of the of the West may be armored with walls of steel,
But I have borders guarded by the mighty chest of a believer... |
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EGETRK
Consul
Joined: 16-Sep-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 300 |
Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 15:28 |
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no hellios,i jus wanted some exemples...
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The lands of the of the West may be armored with walls of steel,
But I have borders guarded by the mighty chest of a believer... |
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Hellios
Arch Duke 
Joined: 25-Sep-2006 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 1933 |
Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 15:44 |
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Ok, I see what you mean.
I just did a fast research and found this article (below).
It also includes an audio sample.
I'll post more (hopefully better) examples later - have to go now.
Rgds/Bill
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Bulldog
Caliph 
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 16:42 |
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Uncle_TOM
1) Baglama is not a CA turkic instrument. It's a middle eastern instrument and 3000+ years old.
2) Baklava is a traditional Syrian food, since archaic times.
3) Doner is a middle-eastern food, has no connection with CA.
4) Kahve (Turkish Coffee) is a middle eastern type Coffee. Has no connection with CA.
1. Baglama is a CA Turkic Instrument, derived from the ancient KOPUZ and entered Anatolia only after the migration of Turks. There are many types of Baglama aswell.
There are no equivalents in the Middle East, in Central Asia there are many sister instruments, Dombra, Komuz, Dutar. These type of instruments have been found in Hun tombs and are noted in the GokTurk inscriptions as being taken to war for having special powers.
The OUD is not tradtional Middle Eastern either, these have been commongly used in China, Iran and Central Asia since ancient times, the Iranian BARBAT, the Chinease have the PI-PA.
Baglama was passed to Greek culture by the "Bozuk" Turkmens who were in close contact with them. The Bouziki derives from here.
2.) Baklava is what? PROOVE IT, why do people try to comment on matters as if they are experts when they have not thoroughly researched the subject at all. If you were in school you'd get a Fail for such slap dash work, "Oh please Sir its not my fault Johnny told me it was from there".....
Alan Davidson is a Food Historian of the Oxford University Press, this information is sourced, researched and backed up with evidence.
Where'as your claim is but common folklore.
There are similar dishes in many cultures as the concept of layering pastry with Syrup is quite a common one for desserts.
Today's Baklava as we know it, develeped in the Ottoman Royal Kitchen and made its trip from Eastern Turkistan to Istanbul via the Turks where it was improved and refined to its current form.
You cannot get better Baklava than GaziAntap Baklava, its style is unique, most dishes I have seen what people call "Baklava" are not Baklava, they are just versions of it.
3.) Doner is a Central Asian dish, there are common dishes like Shashlik in Central Asia. The style fits Nomadic culture's.
4.) Turkish Coffee was developed by Turks, yes ofcourse other Coffee drinks existed and the beans were bought from Yemen. However, the drink "Turkish Coffee" was created by Turks.
Just like Expresso and Cappachino were created and developed by Itallians, can anybody claim that these are Brazillian or East African drinks because the Coffee Beans come from there? No its absurd
 5.) Hacivat and Karagoz were bought over from Central Asia, this type of Shadow Play has long been carried out in this area. The Dastan tellers and Medah's have ancient roles in Turkic culture, there are many epic story tellers who use "Oral Tradition" like "Manas".
The first recorded Shadow Plays are noted to be from "Indonesia", the Chinease also used them, Chinease and Turks in ancient times lived in close proximity and in some cases in the same areas.
Its definately an Central-East Asian culture in origin.
Turks bought it to Anatolia and created the "Hacivat and Karagoz" style after generations.
This was very popular in the "Town Squares" and especially as entertainment for kids and at Celebrations so all cultures would have been exposed to this.
It is how it passed to Greek Culture.
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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EGETRK
Consul
Joined: 16-Sep-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 300 |
Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 16:53 |
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sağolasın...
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The lands of the of the West may be armored with walls of steel,
But I have borders guarded by the mighty chest of a believer... |
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Bulldog
Caliph
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 16:53 |
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My Greek friend has some "Tapestries"/Carpet which look like Kilims, is this just one-off or are these type of rugs/carpets popular in Greece?
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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Leonidas
Tsar 
Joined: 01-Oct-2005 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 4613 |
Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 21:49 |
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can we define ottomon first? is it anadolian, Central asian, altaic, persian or all of the above?
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The Hidden Face
Chieftain 
Ustad-i Azam Joined: 16-Jul-2005 Location: Mexico Online Status: Offline Posts: 1379 |
Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 22:41 |
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Baglama:
Hittite B.C. 3000, According to the Anatolian Civilizations Museum, which is in Ankara/Turkey, what we see here is Baglama, as a Hittite Instrument. - ...baglamanin gvdesi, sapi, burgulari, hatta psklne varincaya dek tm ayrintilariyla I.. 3000 yillarina ait Hitit kabartmalarinda grlmektedir.
Dr. Atinc Emnalar, Lecturer of Turkish Music - EGE University/ Turkey.
This 5000 years old hittite relief shows almost exact shape of Baglama with even the special accessories such as "Pskl."
Here's a doll that shows todays Turkish baglamas.
 Here's a Turkish source on Internet:
1)
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The Hidden Face
Chieftain
Ustad-i Azam Joined: 16-Jul-2005 Location: Mexico Online Status: Offline Posts: 1379 |
Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 00:18 |
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The Oud is a traditional instrument for Turkish Classical Music. And Since Turkish Classical Music is a continuation of Byzantine Music, the instrument must also have a byzantine Origin. Both Ottoman and Byzantine tradition are enough to make the OUD a traditional Middle Eastern instrument.
Let's take a look at this Byzantine Icon:
 Source:
Can you figure out the other instruments on the picture?
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The Hidden Face
Chieftain
Ustad-i Azam Joined: 16-Jul-2005 Location: Mexico Online Status: Offline Posts: 1379 |
Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 02:06 |
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As for the Baklava issue, It's obvious that the motherland of Baklava is Antep, where is a beautiful Turkish city with ethnically and culturally Syrian roots.
Doner is a middle eastern food again. No need to prove. No panturkist claims that Doner is a CA Turkic Food.
Turkish Coffee has nothing to do with CA again. Created by Ottoman Turkish speaking Middle Eastern Turks.
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EGETRK
Consul
Joined: 16-Sep-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 300 |
Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 02:32 |
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http://www.kopuzsazevi.com/kopuz.htm,
check these site |
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The lands of the of the West may be armored with walls of steel,
But I have borders guarded by the mighty chest of a believer... |
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akritas
Chieftain
Hegemom Joined: 17-Sep-2005 Location: Greek Macedonia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1460 |
Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 02:44 |
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I repeat again my quote because you by pass it.
Baklava identified as the ancient Greek gastris, kopte, kopton, or koptoplakous, mentioned in the Deipfosophists and was calling later as "Byzantine favorite."
The Deipfosophists is a long work of literary and antiquarian research by the ancient Greek author Athenaus of Nafkratis in Egypt at 2nd cen AD. Simply was the ancient diary lexikon.
This kind of cofee originated from the Arabs brough it in Constantinople at 1755 from two Syrias traders. The name Turkish cofee become widespread during the Ottoman Empire. Is also known as Armenian Coffee ( Hykakan Cofe ), Greek coffee ( Ελληνικός καφές) or Byzantine coffee and in Cyprus as Kypriakos kafes.
Edited by akritas - 04-Nov-2006 at 02:58 |
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EGETRK
Consul
Joined: 16-Sep-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 300 |
Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 04:21 |
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baklava too,its mddle eastern origin but last effect was meade by Ottoman Trks...
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The lands of the of the West may be armored with walls of steel,
But I have borders guarded by the mighty chest of a believer... |
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konstantinius
General 
Joined: 22-Aug-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 762 |
Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 07:39 |
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Of course Greece has Ottoman traces. Greeks will only deny that out of fuming patriotism when someone corners them with some st..id nationalistic question of the kind "well, how about this and that, and that other thing? Well, there you go, you're really Turkish after all!"
Ottoman traces survive in the language, the cuisine, the music, the dress, and probably the blood as well. I would also like to add the mentality and modus operandi of both the indivindual and the state in Greece. But this does not imply assimilation or loss of national identity. For example, lets look at all the Arabic traces in Ottoman civilization: Aren't those rugs called "Persian" rugs? Isn't the coffee Arabic? And the baglama, Ottoman as it might be, wasn't derived from the Persian sh*tar? Wasn't the Grand Vezyr of the Porte also a title in the Ummayad and Abbasid Caliphates? Salladin, Islam's greatest warrior to some, was a Kurd and his master who started it all, Nurredin, was atabeg of Mosul. What about the religion? Or was Islam a Turkish invention too? Yet, despite these traces, Ottoman and Turkish culture retain a character of their own and a different history. So it goes for others too, you know. Edited by konstantinius - 04-Nov-2006 at 07:50 |
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" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."
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EGETRK
Consul
Joined: 16-Sep-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 300 |
Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 08:34 |
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no,baglama does not coe from persia... |
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The lands of the of the West may be armored with walls of steel,
But I have borders guarded by the mighty chest of a believer... |
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nikodemos
Shogun 
Joined: 24-Aug-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 248 |
Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 08:40 |
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I think it depends also on the region.On mainland Greece which was
under ottoman occupation there are traces left in the the music,the
speech(loanwords),the traditioanal costumes.The traditional culture of
the Greeks from Asia Minor has also many similarities with the
traditional culture of some places in turkey.The religious communities
lived close to each other and they were mutually influenced.On the
other hand the traditional culture of parts of Greece which were never
under ottoman occupation like Corfu for example has few ottoman influence.
Edited by nikodemos - 04-Nov-2006 at 11:12 |
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Ellin
Samurai 
Joined: 13-Jul-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 135 |
Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 08:40 |
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If the Turks were so offay in rug making then why didn't the US consul to Izmir/Smyrna, George Horton, seem to think so?? "The rug industry no longer exists. The Armenians and Greeks, who were its personnel, have fled and settled in Rhodes, Piraeus, and some at Bari. There no longer remains any one in Smyrna who knows how to make carpets." http://www.ellopos.net/politics/turkey-blight/greece-asia.asp If the Greeks had Turkish blood, there wouldn't have been a need for a Revolution now would there. We would've been one big happy family with the Turks. You think after 400 years we would've been able to preserve our identity had there been mixing with the Turks?? If anything, it's thanks to the Turks that we became more ardent in preserving our racial and cultural identity. |
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"Grk ppl r anarchic & difficlt 2 tame.4 this reasn we must strike deep in2 thr lang,relgn,cult& hist resrvs, so that we cn neutrlz thr ability 2 develp,distinguish
themslvs/ 2 prevail"..up urs Kisngr |
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nikodemos
Shogun
Joined: 24-Aug-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 248 |
Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 08:50 |
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The ottoman empire was a theocratic state therefore the christians had
motives to change the religion and convert.On the other hand the
muslims were the dominating religion therefore they were the community
which received "blood" from the other communities,the christians and
the Jews.
There were many occasions of christians(slavs and Albanians mostly,Greeks,Armenians etc.) and Jews that converted to Islam. |
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EGETRK
Consul
Joined: 16-Sep-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 300 |
Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 09:16 |
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ottoman were respectfullly to all race and all religion which were living in his hegemony...
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The lands of the of the West may be armored with walls of steel,
But I have borders guarded by the mighty chest of a believer... |
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Bulldog
Caliph
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 12:35 |
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Hidden_Face
Hittite B.C. 3000, According to the Anatolian Civilizations Museum, which is in Ankara/Turkey, what we see here is Baglama, as a Hittite Instrument.
Baglama? where? that's not evidence its a damaged stone-inscription, this is not proof its a manipulation of history to suit your desires.
Unless your suggesting the Ancient Turks had relations with the Hitite's your theory is absurd.
The Kopuz has existed for thousands of years and it has many similar instruments through-out Central Asia and Eastern countries.
These intruments are not common in the Middle-East.
Hidden_Face
This 5000 years old hittite relief shows almost exact shape of Baglama with even the special accessories such as "Pskl."
 Don't tell me that your an "Anatolianist".
The instrument is not exactly the same shape, is held in a different position a position resembling more the PI-PA of China, the adition is a decoration for a doll, it doesn't exist on Turkic Baglama's and has no significance.
"Similar" instruments in various geographical areas point to two points.
1. That some instruments are so ancient that they were used before Humans started branching off into nations.
2. That similar looking instruments have been created by different societies, them looking similar are nothing but a coincidence and a matter of logic ie putting together a structure for creating sound via vibrations.
For example
 The "Jews Harp" instrument an ancient pluck string instrument, similar instruments have been found in the areas listed, also in Xiong-Nu tombs.
This isn't a Turkic site, Turkish sources have no credibility as not many here can read them, there are no sources, no evidence no research shown.
The theories of Anatolianists are very silly. They believe that people in Turkey today are continuations of ancient Anatolians (culturally), so anything found in the areas of Turkey are somehow connected to what is available today.
They simply find anything similar, connect it and then claim that people were always doing this or that and that it just re-appeared one day.
This of-course has no credibility, the Baglama family of instruments does not have equilavents in the Middle East and Europe. However, in Central Asia and the Far-East there are many similar instruments.
Hidden_Face
The Oud is a traditional instrument for Turkish Classical Music. And Since Turkish Classical Music is a continuation of Byzantine Music
No its not.
Turkish Classical music is Turkish Classical music.
It has far more Arabic and Persian elements than Byzantine, there are very little Byzantine influences.
Ussak, Cargak, Buselik Makam's for example, Taksim, Fasil, Sema, Tug/Tuy etc etc
The Mehteran is an ancient Turkic form of music deriving from Tug music culture of the Gok-Turks, more previously the Huns Xiong-nu etc
Shamanic cultures are musical cultures, they have influence many cultures with their dances and music.
Oud developed in the East, from the East it made it's way to the West.
Hidden_Face
As for the Baklava issue,
Sorry but your just making it up as you go along.
The history of Baklava has been studied in-depth and I provided an objective analyses of this above.
Baklava in origin is Turkic as if the Yufka used to make it.
From Central Asia it was developed further in the Ottoman Kitchen and became what we today know as Baklava.
Baklava is not Greek and nobody but Greek biased historians claim this.
Bakava is not even made in Greece, what you call Baklava is not Baklava its a similar imitation which doesn't use the same methods.
Hidden_Face
Doner is a middle eastern food again. No need to prove.
No need to proove?
 , I sugges you find another forum, history is ALL ABOUT PROVING, researching, using credible and objective sources.If you can't proove it then how can you claim it.
Doner is Turkic in etymology meaning "to turn/spin". Shashlik is a common dish in Central Asia, Cag Kebab is also similar to Doner and is used in Central Asia.
It is Middle Eastern today due to the Ottoman and Seljuk influence.
Akritas
This kind of cofee originated from the Arabs brough it in Constantinople
It looks like I'm going to have to go through this all again.
Istanbul was introduced to coffee in 1543 during the reign of Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent by zdemir Pasha. There was a Coffee drink already in existance in Ethiopia and Yemen.
However, it was in the Ottoman Kitchen that the drink "Turkish Coffee" was created.
Yes, Turkish Coffee was created it didn't always exist it has a creation date as does Turkish Delight.
Coffee soon became a vital part of palace cuisine and was very popular in court. The position of Chief Coffee Maker (kahvecibaşı) was added to the roster of court functionaries. The Chief Coffee Maker's duty was to brew the Sultan's or his patron's coffee, and was chosen for his loyalty and ability to keep secrets. The annals of Ottoman History record a number of Chief Coffee Makers who rose through the ranks to become Grand Viziers to the Sultan.
Coffee soon spread from the palace to grand mansions, and from grand mansions to the homes of the public. The people of Istanbul quickly became enamoured with the beverage. Green coffee beans were purchased and then roasted at home on pans. The beans were then ground in mortars and brewed in coffeepots known as "cezve". They created this "recipie".
The Coffee in Arabia was known as "Mirra", Mirra is still drank in areas of South-Eastern Turkey, if you go to a Cafe there you can have Turkish Coffee or Mirra.
Why is this so hard to understand? nobody tells Itallians that their coffee is Brazillian or East African.
Konstantinius
Aren't those rugs called "Persian" rugs?
No, Persian Rugs and Turkish Rugs are different. Turkish rugs use the "Turkish Knot", Persian's use the "Persian Knot". Persian designs are more naturalist ie human figures, Turkic designs are more symetrical, both have deep meanings for their symbols and they both can tell whole stories.
Ancient Turkic rugs thousands of years old were found using the same knot system in Payrzyk. Also near-by other tombs had ancient Persian carpet's.
Konstantinius
And the baglama, Ottoman as it might be, wasn't derived from the Persian sh*tar?
No, Baglama is Turkic like the Ilkig, Kopuz, Dombra etc are, these were used by Shamans and still are in Tengrist areas.
Konstantinius
Wasn't the Grand Vezyr of the Porte also a title in the Ummayad and Abbasid Caliphates?
Yes
Ellin
There no longer remains any one in Smyrna who knows how to make carpets."
Go and visit the areas around the Izmir and you'll realise that your just making a fool out of yourself.
Edited by Bulldog - 04-Nov-2006 at 15:16 |
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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