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Modern Korea: North vs South, who wins?

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  Quote TranHungDao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Modern Korea: North vs South, who wins?
    Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 14:06
Originally posted by pekau

If another Korean War breaks out, it could be said that N. Korea would win the war.

Before I talk, N. Korea don't have enough food to support the army... is a popular misconception. Food is available in any countries in the world. Sudan, considered by United Nations as the poorest country in the world, has enough food to support all starving Sudan people. And yet, they starve and die like North Koreans. Why?



The height differences between North and South Koreans is mindblowing.  European soccer players who've played the N. Korean national team have remarked that the players were tiny, like 5'3" vs 6"1" western players.  There's a real lack of food in N. Korea.


As for the question of who would win, you'd have to specify if the US is involved or not.   But it is impossible that the US would not be involved considering that they have about 40,000 troops there whom would definitely be targets of the North.


Shortly after the North Koreans tested the nuke, CNN had a professor from the Univ of Georgia on to comment.  He was South Korean.  When asked who would win if the US & S. Korea used force in reaction to the nuke testing, he said:  "We could flatten North Korea if we wanted to.  But do we want to face the consequences?"  That is with China, the Russians, and of course the potential devastation to S. Korea. 


Some estimates put any war with N. Korea would kill at least 1 million poeple in S. Korea.  They say that the North would immediately send in 100,000 fanatical and well trained paratroopers who would hook up with N. Korean cells inside of S. Korea.  Frankly, I doubt that the North could get past the US and S. Korean air defenses.


IMO, the North does not have the capability of breaching the DMZ.  But the US and S. Korean forces can.  Much of N. Korea's military hardware is quite antiquated, if not dalipidated. 


Lastly, the question of a collaspe of the North Korean military.  Everyone in North Korea is sick of Kim Jong Idiot.  Everyone there watches smuggled S. Korean TV shows and movies.  They also get word from N. Korean relatives who live in China, who have far more freedom--and food.  They know that life is far better in China.  And they know that the grass is by far greenest in capitalist and democratic South Korea.


Roughly speaking, the US military was about 1.5 times as strong in the Korean War as it was during WWII.  The US military was 10 times stronger in the Vietnam War than it was during the Korean War.  The US was 10 times stronger in the 1991 Gulf War than it was in Vietnam.  Now?  It is about 1.5 times stronger in 2003, the second Iraq War, than it was in 1991.


In Asia, either the Japanese or S. Korea military is the best.  They have money, i.e. for fancy weapons and sophisticated training.  Then the Taiwanese.  Again, this has everything to do with money.  Size does matter, but not as much as money--at least when you're talking about the average soldier/unit.


Even in strict N. Korea vs. S. Korea only war, with the US not involved, I'd still say the S. Korea miltiary would win.  S. Korea just has too many advantages.  North Korea's military has only size as an advantage.  But S. Korea has large numbers of reserves too.




Edited by TranHungDao - 10-Jun-2007 at 14:11
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  Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 04:09
I'm glad you got a laugh out it.  Perhaps I was lamenting like some Gen Xer holding on some mythical Hippie value and you just told me that they fell in love, got a job, had kids, built fences and voted for Reagan.  Well if that is the case I guess it's better knowing it.

I know ROK democracy is corrupt. What political system isn't?  But they have their third civilian president in a row, all of them built their political career as civil rights leaders.  All these could be just historic symbolisms if you look at how their admins got corrupted. And for most of people it doesn't matter whether it's a military dictatorship or civilian left wing president if they are all corrupt.

Though ROK politics should evolve beyond this left-right duality, ability to elect a left winger is one of the fundamental prize of a democracy.  I'm not suggesting ROK should elect left wingers every time but it is an important option.

When people elect a heroic freedom fighter, then that hero gets corrupt, then the corrupt hero who changed, but people who demands more. Most of candidates will run on previous administration's corruption just like any other democracy.  How many governments can fry a big fish like CEO of Hyundai Motors or Hanhwa?  Yes, they are symbolic showcase sacrificials and they will get lesser sentences or pardoned in later courts, But why that is even necessary?  Old days they just bribed the dictators and got away with anything, people fought back and you gave them the leaders they wanted to see if they are gonna calm down trust their hero, but no, they want hold a higher bar to their heroes and want to know every corruption.  Isn't that how we get uncorrupted into a mature democracy?  Can't tell ya if it works though.  I know it is far more democratic than under Park Jung Hee or  Jeon  Doo  Hwan  and even they weren't that bad for many other nations today.  Would you want a dictator who just tortures and Kills or a dictator who tortures and kills and develope the economy?  OK, I've been just babbling cos I took a tooth out today.

I will tell you this though, there will be nothing like KwangJu for a while.  Which connects to my beat-down culture comment that you can't beat these people down. Once took the best shot of the bully and you didn't  go down, the bully no longer wants to show his ineffective punches.




 
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 00:50

Of course, there are plenty of people who are smart. Those that make it in are to be respected.

Military dictatorship fear them? (It just sounded funny for odd reason.) I don't have to tell you how corrupted Korean "democracy" is, do I?
 
Most of them are memorizing zombies, from my personal experience. As I have said before, this is correct for most cases. Those that don't do this are the ones that make it,
 
Al Ah Deul Uh, Beo Reut Up Neun Saeki. Ha ha! I didn't even know what you were trying to say for few seconds. Nice. But I wouldn't say that I am an ignorant brat for now. It's true that many kids are totally ineffecitve in studying. Of course, there are some that manage to overcome this... but there are not so many. It's natural. They can't possibily accept everyone.
 
Yes, the meaningless military service is something that every Koreans dread. We should have that after we finish the school. There should be some kind of reform on that...
     
   
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  Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 21:09
Thanx for the comment from the proto-Korean.Tongue 

I just wanna add a couple more.
First,  the Westerners dominate Nobel prizes, becuase they are given by Westerners to promote the Western ideas not because they are memorizing zombies.   If Korea is still under Japanese occupation I won't be heart broken because I didn't win some Emperor's science award or arts award. 

Yes, many Korean university students do slow down once they get into a college, but most of their male students go through 2 years of military service, can you imagine, if you have to drop everything you were studying in your Soph year to pick it back up after 2 years of being a soldier?   Another contributing factor could be lack of facility and faculty, exception of  few elite schools or specialised fields, even elite schools can't really compete with Western or Japanese elite schools.  But who needs to make excuses?  Not I.  I have mad respect for Korean university students.  Every military dictatorships feared them,   I know  that I don't have to explain  how influential Korean university students were in ROK democracy, even today.  Does that sounds like just a bunch of  memorizing zombies to you?
I'm sorry that Korean students think that being in a college is more than just a neccessary step to realise their middle class Capitalists'  dream.   Knowledge is a privilege in any culture old and new, but in Korea it is a privilege must be returned to people who gave it to you, that is why they march next to poor farmers and sweatshop workers.  A Platonic Philosopher King ain't sh#t but when knowlege personafies as social justice.  If you ever call them a memorizing zombies, I'll give you the Korean education that you gonna miss your sleepover days the Neverland.  Al Ah Deul Uh, Beo Reut Up Neun Saeki.


Edited by King Kang of Mu - 07-Jun-2007 at 21:23
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 19:02
Originally posted by King Kang of Mu

Koreans are just raised with beat-down culture that's all.  How many American teacher's gonna beat down a student because he's 5 mins late or didn't do he's homework or got D in the midterm or chewing a gum...... I had a gym teacher who brought an aluminum bat, and yes he used it.   That's just teachers, my middle school lunch hours were like stepping into the octagon, the heavy hitters always fought after school. Don't think you are safe at home either, depends on each family, some times your grandma slaps you.  You get lost in downtown walk into a Demo and you get gassed and then beat down.  It's tough to be a Korean, a lifetime training really.  You are born to roll with the punches. Just imagine, most of male teachers you have, two or more years of military service, how that would change the teacher-student relation.  It's a military culture the day you become a boy. So I wouldn't worry too much about their training.  Of course, it's probably not much different for North Korea.  If American teachers and parents start beating their kids, about one tenth of what Koreans do, their kids will read in kindergarten and start Calculus by 9th grade and become a world renown concert pianist and Stem Cell researcher by 24 .
 
Yes you would. Military training is not merely about being able to survive teachers' violence. Military training is the ability for individuals to work with other soldiers efficiently and are disciplined enough to be able to listen to their superiors. The problem with the shooting games these days that Koreans are so good at does not necessary increase their military potential. It just means they know how to shoot. Being a soldier is not just abouting making a good shots, like many militants from third world countries. This is what makes soldiers different from militants.
 
It may be off-topic, but the ideal education system is not brutal violence... as you have said. It is to find the balance between discipline and freedom. Look at how many Koreans sacrifice their time... only to realize that all their effort and suffering are mostly in vain. They sleep 4 hours (If you are lucky) and all they do is study. They don't have a life. And what do they get in the end? Many of them who studied like that don't even get decent wage. All they do is memorize and memorize, and they no longer have desire to learn. That's why so many Koreans come back home and start chatting or play online game for all the spare time they can afford. Korea' education system does not necessarily increase the educational efficiency, it decreases it.
 
But I am not saying that Korean education system should be replaced with Western education. It will be disasterous. The concentration of Korean students are so huge compared to Western world that if everyone gets reasonable mark... there will be so many students for the post secondary and college/university students to handle. They need to cut a lot of people, and that means more difficult tests and exams.
 
I was unusually lucky one. I was homeschooled and entered first public school in my third grade. While others were facing teacher' violence, corruption and stupid peer pressure, I was actually taught to enjoy learning. I used internet and some books that actually explained why and how things happened. I learned English and Japanese from my dad and my grandmother. (I had a small extended family) By the time I got into the school, I protested the teachers that usage of whips were unacceptable, and would call police if I was touched in any way without any good reason. My dad was called to the office many times because some idoitic teachers were complaining that I was lacking "discipline".
 
They are the one to talk, for God's sake.
 
After some heated arguments, they decided not to care as long as my score was high. (These teachers usually would resign, since they no longer refused to see me, but they need pension before they resign.) I didn't join any extra curriculum that are academic related, which saved a lot of time. I went home after school while many others were busy with going to JEI and other crappy educational facilities. My parents saved money that way as well, giving half of the tution-worth money to me instead. Smile While others studied until midnight, I went to bed at 9. While people sat on the chari starting at meaningless and neverending list of possible questions for the final exam, I was playing sports and some online games.
 
And look how it turned out. I study about 4 hours, work and sleep reasonably, and I am still above average. My parents don't have to see the teacher with bunch of bribes like other parents do. I accept everyone and get along with everyone, including school bullies and their victims. I correct teachers and enjoy learning by internet (Which includes this website).
 
If people didn't bother about peer pressure and have the will to learn rather than inefficiently memorize until they become zombies, they would save time, keep up the grades, save money and most importantly, have a life. Why do you think there are so many Western people getting Nobel Prizes and make tons of discoveries? Are we truly learning, or are we limiting our learning enough to get a decent job and reputation?
 
Some say Koreans are good at math compared to others, and it seems like we are. Many of the Korean immigrants ace math in elementary and junior high school. Some even ace in high school as well.
 
But the true color shows up when they enter University. Many Koreans get amazing marks until they graduate high school. Academic related extra curriculums are not available for university courses. Koreans don't know how to study. They know how to memorize, but memorization and hard working ethic is no longer factor. It is now a basic requirement. They need to have good time management, and the ability to quickly understand the concept and apply their understanding to solve questions instead of finding the pattern. In another words, they need to know how to study effectively.
 
This may explain why Koreans graduate high school with decent to terrific marks, but can't even graduate university and beyond. So now I ask you this; Yes, we are working much harder than many of the Western students, but do we really have faster learning pace than Western students?
     
   
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  Quote Lord Ranulf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 17:57
North Korean military is not that good. But on the other hand, sometimes quantity still counts. NK has enough artillery tubes with enough range to flatten most of South Korea in a bombardment that would only last a few hours---
 
It certainly does have a long and large number of pieces and they would raise havoc certainly wihtin the first three hours but their range doesn't exceed 35 kilometers even with RAP rounds (and here i am adressing tube arty not missile) hence a bit of an over generalisation there my friend.
 
This also begs the issue of counterbattery and CAS/Rotary wing attack Avn assets, strikes which can be quite effective against any battery in the open. Which of course is a requirement in the first place even with cover and concealment. 
 
Likewize this presumes that the 'eyes in the sky' have gone to sleep and no notice of a major arty mob along the DMZ were not taking place.
 
 
Not Likely.
 
 
 
But in this para you have discerned an obvious truth that many times escapes the most astute and practiced mind; military or other. Because no mattter the criticality of training, tactics, doctrine, logistic, communications, security and political/military strategy, and they are all Key;
 
 
'sh*t happens'.
 
Well done.
 
 
 
Sometimes it is foolish to put too much stock in technology (or even training). It all depends on the situation, and in this case, it counts for much less than one might suppose. The South is in a difficult position. If it were not, North Korea would not be a menace but a mere pest, like Cuba.
 
Thanks
 
Lord Ranulf


Edited by Lord Ranulf - 07-Jun-2007 at 18:01
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 14:39
North Korean military is not that good. But on the other hand, sometimes quantity still counts. NK has enough artillery tubes with enough range to flatten most of South Korea in a bombardment that would only last a few hours, and there simply would be no time to rain enough destruction down from the air on those tubes in time to prevent it.

Artillery is a funny thing in modern war - the technology really hasn't changed that much since the late 19th century, and is still nearly as effective as it ever was, in certain circumstances.

Sometimes it is foolish to put too much stock in technology (or even training). It all depends on the situation, and in this case, it counts for much less than one might suppose. The South is in a difficult position. If it were not, North Korea would not be a menace but a mere pest, like Cuba.
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  Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 07:39
Koreans are just raised with beat-down culture that's all.  How many American teacher's gonna beat down a student because he's 5 mins late or didn't do he's homework or got D in the midterm or chewing a gum...... I had a gym teacher who brought an aluminum bat, and yes he used it.   That's just teachers, my middle school lunch hours were like stepping into the octagon, the heavy hitters always fought after school. Don't think you are safe at home either, depends on each family, some times your grandma slaps you.  You get lost in downtown walk into a Demo and you get gassed and then beat down.  It's tough to be a Korean, a lifetime training really.  You are born to roll with the punches. Just imagine, most of male teachers you have, two or more years of military service, how that would change the teacher-student relation.  It's a military culture the day you become a boy. So I wouldn't worry too much about their training.  Of course, it's probably not much different for North Korea.  If American teachers and parents start beating their kids, about one tenth of what Koreans do, their kids will read in kindergarten and start Calculus by 9th grade and become a world renown concert pianist and Stem Cell researcher by 24 .


Edited by King Kang of Mu - 07-Jun-2007 at 07:45
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  Quote Easternknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2007 at 23:13
I believe that the best trained Armies in Asia are (not in order btw) R.O.C, R.O.K and Singapore's armed forces.
 
Actually American soldiers think very higly of ROK soldiers (nicknamed "ROCK" soldiers by US personal) mainly due to hardcore training not just elite units but regular ones as well, Also more modern equipment is coming into service and the old pattons are being retired which btw are superior to all of DPRK Tanks bar perhaps the T-72/T-80 as they are M48A5K series. The K-2 is the best tank in Asia and perhaps one of the best in the world along with German and Israeli tanks.
 
ROK troops have excellent physcial/physological training far better then most armies around the world. As it is America can't and wouldn't send any moajor aid if the 2nd Korean war broke out beyond air/naval support
(we dont need any help from US soldiers anyhow which are looked down upon for good reason)
 
the statements made about Koreas spoiled liberal youth is true however and the Quality of the armed forces is decreasing as such
 
( again late at night sloppy post sorry)
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2007 at 21:43
Originally posted by Intranetusa

Originally posted by pekau

It's true that South Korean military training is terrible as ever. My friend's older brother went to military... and he wanted out since all they really did is to clean the washrooms, and be insulted and beaten by the higher ranked people. Basically, the newcomers are just suffering to appease the higher ranked people. Many skip the training, except for newcomers... since the higher ranked people enjoys newcomers to suffer...Dead
 
damn, that sucks. :(
and here I thought Korean millitary trainning was the best in East Asia. Cry
 
Well, that's how it is for many people who have to offer few years of their lifetime for their nation... it shows how... "patriotic" we are these days...
 
But don't get this wrong. These are for people who wants to leave military as earliest as possible. For those that actually want to have military career (Whether they want to be general or just a regular soldier) that actually get paid, they train seriously. Those people' training, I think, is the finest in entire Far East. The ones that I just mentioned are just barely militias... don't get me wrong. South Korean military training for those that get paid is impressive.
     
   
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  Quote Intranetusa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2007 at 20:35
Originally posted by pekau

It's true that South Korean military training is terrible as ever. My friend's older brother went to military... and he wanted out since all they really did is to clean the washrooms, and be insulted and beaten by the higher ranked people. Basically, the newcomers are just suffering to appease the higher ranked people. Many skip the training, except for newcomers... since the higher ranked people enjoys newcomers to suffer...Dead
 
damn, that sucks. :(
and here I thought Korean millitary trainning was the best in East Asia. Cry
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2007 at 13:16
It's all about speed. Just like the old days when Germanay tried to conquer France. Time and speed is the key. If North can't conquer South in small periods of time, they are done for.
     
   
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  Quote LuckyNomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2007 at 20:48

North Korea's Army has been on the decline since the mid 1990's. Kim Jong Il also knows that the massive size of his army has been a huge drain on the country's resources. This is one of the reasons that he is making nuclear weapons. He needs a credibal deterrent that doesn't suck up all his money.

The North Koreans usually serve 7-10 years in the Army. They get out when they are 27. Once they get out of the Army, they are usually sent to work in the coal mines for the rest of their lives.(this is why many soldiers defect). They are also forbidden from having wives, girlfriends, or having sex. Only Soldiers that have gone to the Academy to become officers can have wives. This is why there is widespread rape in nearby villages.
 
The North doesn't have the economic ability to sustain a war, and has no chance at ever reunifying Korea by force. Plus, if the North Korean soldiers ever invaded the south, they would immediately realize that their lives had been built on nothing but lies. They would see that the South is rich and prosperous and that North Korea is pathetically backward.
If a war ever came. I think it would only consist of the North, firing chemical weapons at the South.
The South's Army is pretty pathetic. The 2 years in the Army is nothing but an impediment to a career and a good life. It's a nussiance that most don't want to deal with. If they join the Army after Highschool, then they have to wait 2 years before they go to college. If they join the army after college, than they have to wait 2 years to start a career. Meanwhile, the women get a headstart in everything. As for the 4.5 million reserves, that is a laugh to think that they could simply go from their homes over to fighting a war on the DMZ in a couple of days. The bottom line is, South Korea needs the US alliance, at least until they can take control over the North's economy and government in a natural way.
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2007 at 07:22
It's true that South Korean military training is terrible as ever. My friend's older brother went to military... and he wanted out since all they really did is to clean the washrooms, and be insulted and beaten by the higher ranked people. Basically, the newcomers are just suffering to appease the higher ranked people. Many skip the training, except for newcomers... since the higher ranked people enjoys newcomers to suffer...Dead
     
   
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  Quote Rhavas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2007 at 06:01
South Korea may appear to have advanced weaponry, but this is only in it's more elite units. Many of their tank battalion are armed with M-48 Pattons or M-60s, and Most of their other equipment like trucks are very old as well. I've see this with my own eyes, so I'm not just pulling this  out of my ass. These are about on par with the upgraded T-62s, and Type-59s  the North Koreans employ. Furthermore North Korean Soldiers serve for 7 years, and I'm asssuming have time to become well trained at their MOS. South Korean Soldiers serve for two, have a pathetic basic training, receive little effective training, and by the time they might have learned their job, they're leaving the army. Consider in the U.S. Army it takes years to create a gunner or tank commander, and the South Koreans are forced to do it with ill-trained conscripts with less than two years of experience. I do not, however believe North Korea could sustain itself once large amounts of U.S. reinforcements arrived in Theater, nor could it conquer all of South Korea before this happened. When the ROK army takes operational control of its forces in 2012 this could be a different story however, as I believe that will be an absolute diseaster for the national defense of South Korea.

Edited by Rhavas - 17-May-2007 at 06:02
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2007 at 19:36
Originally posted by I/eye

the only thing is the North Korean wmd..
 
even without nukes, their chemical weaponry is third after Russia and U.S.
 
Really? You sure it's not Iran?
     
   
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  Quote I/eye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 17:56
the only thing is the North Korean wmd..
 
even without nukes, their chemical weaponry is third after Russia and U.S.
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  Quote Easternknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 17:20
No It really doesn't ROK has twice the population and god knows how bigger an economy and industry then North Korea
 
South Korea has 4.5 millon reservists it could mobilze in days
with an active Military force of around 650,000+
 
just because North Korea has more soldiers which are poorly trained, fed and equipped does not mean they will win a land war
 
the Quality of North Korean Equipment is god-awful with ROK's 2000+ MBT of mostly K1 (1048) K1A1 (200+) [offical number unknown could be as high as several hundred] M48A5K (850) A5 series considered to be superior to all of the early M60 MBT Models as well as T-80U (40)  and soon the K2 which will arguably be the best tank in the world and the best in Asia many MBT are now being equipped with ERA as well.  outlcasses every North Korean Tank hell, North Korea still has hundreds of T-34s most of its MBT's are T-54/55 along with T-62's and a hanful of
T-72s [ some people say they have no T-72's]
 
 
 
also thousands upon thousands of MANPADs, ATGM, and fire and forget AT weapons are more advanced by decades then anything the North Koreans have in quantity. North Korean Air Force and Navy are a joke. Much of its Artillary guns which are aimed at Seoul are WW2 era and a number of them haven't been moved to a significant distance since the 1970's!  Its BTR-40-60 and BMP-1s are Soviet Cold-War Trash one RPG-7 would destroy them. if South Korean soldiers had to retreat we would leave trucks full of food to halt the North Korean Advance :P
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 23:04
Ok, so they weren't destoryers. My bad. I blame my math homework. It made be drowsy. (Just kidding, but they were really tiresome.)
 
Yes, North Korea dwarfs South Korea in terms of numbers. Plus, the quality of North Korean's weapon isn't that behind in terms of land armies. I mean, if Middle Eastern resistance could do that much to Americans... Gott knows what North Koreans can do.
     
   
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Knight
Knight
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Joined: 28-Mar-2005
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  Quote stupidumboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 11:37

There was no SK destoyer involved on that sea battle.

They were all  guard ships and high speed patrol ships armed with 40 mm machine guns.
 
North Korean side were torpedo ships and partrol ships.
Two of them were sunk and they even could not do counter attack against  SK machine gun shots despite of the fact that they attacked SK patrol ship first.
 
Two of SK ships were hit by NK 27 mm naval guns but the damage was small , two NK ships were sunk and the rest were heavily damaged escaped. NK could do nothing to counter SK 120 per/min machine gun shot(they seemd busy to rotate naval guns).
 
7 number of SK navy soldiers were wounded (3 of them by NK grenade shot ) while over 50 NK soldiers were assumed to be dead.
 
NK 's military power cannot be compared to SK , in airforce and army too if you can check each main possed arms and their performance difference.
 
 
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