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 Topic: Question re Che Guevara.Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 16:08 |
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I didn't say Che Guevara cared at all.
Pinguin
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Hellios
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Joined: 25-Sep-2006 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 1933 |
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Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 17:28 |
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Pinguin,
You assume that because you see common communist or socialist elements in those revolutions.
What you're saying is that without people who fight for the poor & repressed, the poor & repressed would have a better standard of living.
 You're also adding up casualties from separate conflicts as an argument against 1 person! 
Guerillas will usually accept funding from wherever they can get it.
There's some cause for rebellion in Colombia but not enough (in my opinion) to justify some things the guerillas do there. It's not the same circumstances as (for example) the Cuban revolution.
I agree with you about the USSR (and probably East Block) having given financial support to Central and/or Southern American guerillas.
Basically, what you're saying is that you don't understand why people believe in certain communist & socialist ideals. This is something only a neutral person can understand without believing in at the same time.
You seem to have a preference for only non-socialist and/or non-communist revolutions. Revolutions are revolutions. How were the poor & repressed of a country like Cuba any different than the poor & repressed of Mexico? and why should their story be any more or less interesting? Edited by Hellios - 03-Nov-2006 at 19:34 |
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Hellios
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Joined: 25-Sep-2006 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 1933 |
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Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 17:57 |
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Yes, you claimed he was fighting for the interests of only the poor white of Hispanic decent and not the aboriginals, and we discussed it further.
Anyhow, if now you feel he didn't care at all for anybody he fought for, I suggest you have some talks with families who've lived under the regimes he fought to overthrow. I'm not a political activist, but when I hear someone say that Che Guevara didn't care at all for anybody he fought for, I feel a need to clarify.
Rgds/Bill Edited by Hellios - 03-Nov-2006 at 20:33 |
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Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 21:44 |
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No. What I said is Che Guevara was fighting a revolution that has anything to do with the insterest of Bolivians of Amerindian descent!
You should realize that there are still large populations of Amerindians who preserve their culture and customs in all mainland Latin America, but particularly in Mexico, Guatemala, Peru, Ecuador, Bolivia and Paraguay.
In those countries, ethnic Amerindians live in a parallel culture that reject many of the things impossed by westerners.
Now imagine these people seeing a foreigner, white, with high education, that was killing its cattle and some of their people, because of a cause they didn't share? What you would do? Acusse the loonie to the authorities. And that what precisely what happened.
Guerrillas have always killed Native Americans. Just count the victims of the Shinning path and you'll realize why Guzman is so hated in Peru.
Pinguin
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Hellios
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Joined: 25-Sep-2006 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 1933 |
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Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 22:47 |
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Here's the sequence:
- You claimed Guevara's fight in Bolivia was only for the "white poor of Hispanic decent" and not the aboriginals, but you showed no evidence of this.
- I said Bolivian aboriginals don't agree with you and posted about a dozen examples of this.
- Then I gave another example of a black poor man of non-Hispanic decent, and your answer was this: "I didn't say Che Guevara cared at all."
- Now you're back to saying (again) that his fight in Bolivia was only for the "white poor of Hispanic decent" and not the aboriginals, but you continue to show no evidence or examples of this, just an opinion that goes against the beliefs of Bolivian aboriginals.
Can we stop going in circles?
Don't forget Canada too.
The "westerners" you're talking about are the people Guevara was fighting.
The cause of overthrowing a repressive regime??
Pinguin, let's try to base ourselves on facts or at least things we can demonstrate through examples. All that is known as fact is that his defeat in Bolivia was due to the location of his camp being revealed by an "informant". There is no evidence, indications, or declarations that is was as you say. As said before, informants were/are a common thing in most armed conflicts, don't always care very much about politics, and are often more motivation by money.
Guevara killed Bolivian aboriginals??
Yes, but Che is not hated in the Bolivian aboriginal world! Edited by Hellios - 03-Nov-2006 at 22:57 |
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hugoestr
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Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 23:04 |
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Here I go
Bill, I think that the main point that Pinguin is making is that Che lacked the support in Bolivia that he enjoyed in Cuba. To a certain extent he didn't understand why they didn't rally behind him. I am going to call back my previous theory: Che walked into the late phase of the Cuban revolution, so he missed the long build up that made it successful. So he goes to Bolivia, and the people don't support him as he expected they would. Also, Pinguin is right when he talks about the divide between the indigenous people in Latin America and the European or mestizo population. They are regarded as foreigners. I don't know if this played a part into the apathy of Bolivians towards Che or not, but it may have played a role in it. Now for some levity: let me tell you how I am three degrees separated from el Che. My mother-in-law was a hot cutie when she was young. During the 1950s, she visited London. She meets a young Bolivian, and goes out on a date. They go to one of their hotel rooms, and he almost raped her. This man later became the president of Bolivia under whose term el Che Guevara dies
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Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 23:38 |
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[QUOTE=Hellios]
Here's the sequence:
- You claimed Guevara's fight in Bolivia was only for the "white poor of Hispanic decent" and not the aboriginals, but you showed no evidence of this.
No please
. This is getting complicated. Che Guevara was fighting is revolution that theorical will bring equality for everyone. In many places of Latin America, Natives believe every non-Indian (White, Mestizos, Natives that don't speak a Native language, Asians, Blacks, Mulatos, included) lies continuosly, is a robber, a potential criminal, and lacks all credibility. The Che included
 - I said Bolivian aboriginals don't agree with you and posted about a dozen examples of this.
Who speak for Bolivian Aboriginals? Communist don't. Even Morales have had problems to speak in theirs names.
- Then I gave another example of a black poor man of non-Hispanic decent, and your answer was this: "I didn't say Che Guevara cared at all."
Guevara, like any guerilla, didn't care about people. They could kill anyone that crossed in their path. They cared about REVOLUTION not people. They wanted to get in power at any cost, not to become saints.
- Now you're back to saying (again) that his fight in Bolivia was only for the "white poor of Hispanic decent" and not the aboriginals, but you continue to show no evidence or examples of this, just an opinion that goes against the beliefs of Bolivian aboriginals.
Although Guevara was white the problem is not that. The problem is that Guevara was as Western like a British or a French. He belonged to the burguesy. He was a doctor. He spoke a Western language and talked about Western ideas (Christianism and Marxism included!). He has NOTHING in common with Amerindians!
Don't forget Canada too.
Yes. And in Canada Natives are also allienated, at least they assimilate to the mainstream. That happened across the Americas.
The "westerners" you're talking about are the people Guevara was fighting.
No. I am not saying "westerner" to mean the OTAN
. I am defining "Westerners" like those people that grew up inside the Western Civilization, like Guevara did. Go to Argentina or Uruguay. Although a little bit poorer, is like to be in Europe. Bolivia, in the other hand, is the poorest country in Latin South America. Half of its population is ethnical Amerindian, to the point many of them don't even speak Spanish but Quechua or Aymara. They really live in a parallel world in there. The cause of overthrowing a repressive regime??
Why to change a pale face for another pale face? Think about it.
Pinguin, let's try to base ourselves on facts or at least things we can demonstrate through examples. All that is known as fact is that his defeat in Bolivia was due to the location of his camp being revealed by an "informant". There is no evidence, indications, or declarations that is was as you say. As said before, informants were/are a common thing in most armed conflicts, don't always care very much about politics, and are often more motivation by money.
There was not much entusiasm at all in Bolivia because of the arrival of Guevara.
Guevara killed Bolivian aboriginals??
Guevara killed anyone that opposed him.
Yes, but Che is not hated in the Bolivian aboriginal world!
But he was ignored once. And that was it.
Pinguin Edited by pinguin - 03-Nov-2006 at 23:44 |
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Hellios
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Joined: 25-Sep-2006 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 1933 |
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Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 00:17 |
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Pinguin probably thinks that Che had no support in Cuba either
, but what I've been trying to help him understand is that Bolivian aboriginals today feel it was a mistake to not support him more, and I demonstrated this by showing examples of Bolivian aboriginals from the bottom to the top (president) expressing admiration for Che. These are the people Pinguin loves to promote so I don't think they're stupid.
I thought we agreed; the build-up phase was no more or less important than the 3 year military campaign with Fidel.
Yep.
It's the same in Canada, I think I said that twice.
Yesh, it probably did.
OMG!!! This person (who wanted to rape your mother) might've been the same person who ordered Guevara's execution, as most sources refer to the order being phoned in from La Paz.
Tell me, do you believe the news reports about small protests in Bolivia due to the release of previously classified documents pertaining to the presence & actions of the C.I.A. in Bolivia during the period we're talking about? Edited by Hellios - 04-Nov-2006 at 02:08 |
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Hellios
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Joined: 25-Sep-2006 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 1933 |
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Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 01:55 |
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I'm glad we finally agree on that, because before you said his fight in Bolivia was (your words) "for the poors of Latin America of Hispanic descendency and mentality."
What I've been trying help you understand is that Bolivian aboriginals today feel it was a mistake to not support him more, and I demonstrated this by showing examples of Bolivian aboriginals from the bottom to the top (president) expressing admiration for Che. These are the people you love to promote so I don't think they're stupid.
To answer your question; not enough people speak for Bolivian aboriginals, but Morales is one of the few that does.
Your words: "Che Guevara was fighting is revolution that theorical will bring equality for everyone."
So now he was a psychopath...
Your words: "Che Guevara was fighting is revolution that theorical will bring equality for everyone."
It's probably the reverse
You said being white was a problem a few times.
He was certainly different, but a common factor was the fight against a repressive government, as they themselves will tell you today.
Doesn't make any sense as an answer.
Why are you mentioning NATO and explaining all that when what I said is that it's the same people Guevara was fighting?
I'm glad you agree that the regime he was fighting was a "pale face" and yes; fear of an unclear future is something that has stopped many people from standing up for themselves throughout history.
"Hate" or "outrage" would be enough, but "not much enthusiasm" is not enough to establish - as fact - that the informant was politically motivated.
Ok, please show me about Guevara's killing of Bolivian aboriginals.
Yep.
Rgds/Bill
Edited by Hellios - 04-Nov-2006 at 02:07 |
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Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 08:21 |
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Well, that's what he believed, anyways.
Don't confusse Evo Morales with the Che. Evo repressents for Bolivians the return of the ancient rulers. For the first time after the Conquist they have a president of ethnic Amerindian origin. And that shows in the pre-columbian rituals you saw when he become president.
Compare the lifes of Hernan Cortes with the Che Guevara, and you will se a lot of coincidences. Both were allien conquistadors in Indian lands.
Morales is native! That makes the difference.
Have you hear the saying "Cura gatica predica pero no practica" (The prist Gatica preaches but not practise it)? The revolution had a speech, but that does not mean theirs real intention was anything but get in power.
What guerrilla fighter or military gorilla is not one?
Don't you see the double meaning of theirs actions? They said "we are going to to this" but they did what it was convinient to them.
The problem IS NOT THE PHENOTYPE but the CULTURE. Nobody cares about colors of skins in South America but ethnic and social backgrounds are extremely important. The obsesion with "whiteness" is a North American hobbie.
Lord! You still believe Guevara or any other "revolutionary" was a Robin Hood!
Nobody invited him to kill Bolivians, in the first place. What would happens if some foreigner start to kill Canadians to free yourself of your oppresing regime?
Pinguin
Edited by pinguin - 04-Nov-2006 at 08:24 |
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hugoestr
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Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 10:09 |
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Yes, he is the same person. About six months ago I showed my mother-in-law the picture of the president as it appeared in a biography of Che. She identified him as the guy who tried to rape her :P Please send me links to the story about the CIA in Bolivia. Recently there was this interesting revelations about the student movement in 1960s and CIA involvement. The popular story is that leftist groups were behind the 1968 demonstrations. Now we know that they weren't, since it was the CIA who infiltrated and directed many of their actions .
Also, the two presidents of Mexico, the one in power in 1968 and the one who won the election in 1970, they were both paid agents of the CIA. The second one is especially funny since he became a Chavez-like "critic" of the U.S. and imperialism. Maybe in 50 years we will learn that Chavez was paid by the CIA as well 
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Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 10:57 |
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Mexico's position in the Cold War was very weird anyway. I remember reading about the leader of a Mexican secret service in the 1970s who was a personal friend of Castro, but also responsible for fighting guerrillas who were supported by Castro. IIRC he even got sentenced for human rights abuses some years ago. |
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Hellios
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Joined: 25-Sep-2006 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 1933 |
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Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 14:46 |
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Who's confusing Evo with Che? Look at what I wrote: "What I've been trying help you understand is that Bolivian aboriginals today feel it was a mistake to not support him more, and I demonstrated this by showing examples of Bolivian aboriginals from the bottom to the top (president) expressing admiration for Che. These are the people you love to promote so I don't think they're stupid.
"
Che Guevara was/is not known as a conqueror - he was/is known as a sometimes successful but more often unsuccessful revolutionary. Go to Bolivia and/or Cuba and talk with some natives and poor people, or families that were under repression.
Then why did you say this?: "Who speak for Bolivian Aboriginals? Communist don't. Even Morales have had problems to speak in theirs names."
The english equivalent to that expressions is "practice what you preach", and most evidence (not just opinion) indicates Guevara died doing that.
What you're suggesting is that anybody who takes up arms for a cause is a psychopath.
Please be more specific, which actions are you talking about done by who? Conflicts have different circumstances; that's why generalizing isn't too good. Historical facts indicate that Che Guevara died practicing what he preached, now please give me historical facts about his "double-standards".
You said: "He was the one discriminated because he was a white upper class argentinean doctor, playing comunist."
I said: "Please show examples of the Bolivian aboriginals seeing Che Guevara in that light, in comparison to my many examples of them admiring him & his fight for the repressed."
You never showed any examples.
North Americans are more racist than South Americans?
1. I'll take that as a friendly typical South American exaggeration.
2. Brother, I told you 3 times what I believe he was: a sometimes successful but mostly unsuccessful revolutionary.
3. Why would I like or dislike "every" revolutionary? That would be generalizing, like you've been doing.
1. Ok, I'll repeat: please show me about Guevara's killing of Bolivian aboriginals.
2. Research exactly who were the Bolivians he killed, and you'll understand why he's so popular among Bolivian aboriginals today.
I'll answer the way I've been asking you to answer me (opinion supported by fact):
Personally, I would accept him or her if they wanted to help me defeat an oppressive regime.
Factually, Canadian natives joined forces with foreign revolutionaries like Louis Riel and others. Of course, to the Canadian extreme right he is often perceived as something similar to your perception of Che Guevara. Edited by Hellios - 04-Nov-2006 at 15:17 |
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Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 15:22 |
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Which Cubans? The ones that have not taken the boat and still remain in Cuba?
(By the way, there are not many Natives in Cuba. Cuba is a country of whites and mulattoes, where Amerindians dissapeared as a distinct ethniticity. There are still some descendents of Tainos in there, but quite a few)
That rethoric of the repression is precisely what I mean. External forces of Communism and Capitalism brought death, torture and poverty to the Americas. The Che is a symbol of that, like any military gorilla of the Americas.
El Che didn't died in battle. He was captured and executed.
Yes! I am saying that! Precisely. Those "causes" have been the cause of hundred of millions of death worldwide. It is time to forget them and get practical.
Of course! You separate people by race in different neighbours. We separate people by economical conditions, not race.
Of course! If you want to argue with a South American, you should be aware they will pull your legs
As far as I know Bolivians are mainly Amerindians. He killed many in his jungle adventurers. Read his diary and count, please.
Well, you should remember that I saw my own country destroyed because of the coup that put a fascist regime in power. That happened because the communists wanted to spread theirs revolution to Chile, and the fascists didn't agree.
With those antecedents, I preffer those "heroes" are keept well beyond our frontiers.
Pinguin
Edited by pinguin - 04-Nov-2006 at 15:24 |
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Hellios
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Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 18:50 |
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Anyhow, I wasn't talking about them - I was talking about the people in those countries, natives, poor, and families that were under repression.
It's not a country of "whites and mulattoes" but a country of blacks, whites, and everything in between, mostly poor like the other
The original natives were Taino, Siboney, Atabey, Hatuey, and a couple more that I forget.
Denial of repression is worse than rhetoric of repression.
Some revolutions are communist/socialist and some are not. You seem to have a preference, although people die in both.
Please show examples that Che Guevara is "a symbol of death & torture" to the people of
Correct; he died practicing what he preached.
Imagine a world like that; where nobody takes up arms for a cause...
 Pinguin, I'm the most peaceful person, but if I saw my government pull stunts like the regimes Che fought did, believe me, I would take up arms.
I'm sorry for you if you would not.
Which cause are you talking about? Some revolutions were legitimate and some were not. Are you generalizing again?
In terms of racial harmony
Eres un jodedor!
I have - it says he killed Bolivians who were fighting for the regime at the time (a regime everybody knows about) and the Bolivian natives today understand this, which is why they like him, as Ive demonstrated.
I understand perfectly. I've been reading about your country.
 I'm going to
Rgds/Bill Edited by Hellios - 04-Nov-2006 at 19:06 |
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hugoestr
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Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 19:22 |
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That rethoric of the repression is precisely what I mean. External forces of Communism and Capitalism brought death, torture and poverty to the Americas.
Uhm, maybe I am more cynical than others, but I think that it was Latin Americans who killed, tortured, and stole in the Americans. They did this before the Cold War; they did it through the Cold War, through the generous sponsorship of the U.S. and the U.S.S.R.  ; and they have done it after it.
Claiming that we were tricked into it would be saying that we are stupid and easily controlled. We are not. Latin Americans deserve praise for their achievements, and should bare the responsibility for their faults.
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Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 21:32 |
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Well, Hugoestr.
You are right with respect with CERTAIN countries. In others, like my own (Chile), the external influences where a critical factor for both the insurection and the represion that followed. So we tend to keep distance with foreigners and everyone, from left to right, is cautious with them.
At least Chileans don't want anything to do with foreigners, either Americans or Russians. We know now all that matters is money, and we are going to compite with developed nations in any market to make us a space. We don't want to be puppets of those superpowers anymore.
You know we, Latin Americans, don't forget easy and that sooner or later we take revenge. That's the way we are.
Anyways, It is painfull, anyways, for our engineers when they have gone to Russia to help them to mount a facility, or in other engineering task, and verify on field we are more advanced than them in security and many other technologies. And it is also painful to see that the other superpower, the U.S. has so many people living worst than us, like the Katrina disaster showed.
What kind of superpower of paper tried to control us?
Pinguin
Edited by pinguin - 04-Nov-2006 at 21:39 |
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Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 22:18 |
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Who is not suffering represion? Look the repression Americans suffer, but they don't start bombing the supermarkets! They preffer to work.
Cuba is the second "more African" nation in Hispanic America, after Dominican Republic. It got a strong African heritage, to the point they still preserve theirs African religion, called Santeria. And I heared they even know some Yoruba words they use in theirs rituals! The society is White and Mulatto in general terms, with all the shades in between as you say.
Genetics has show than in Puerto Rico, Cuba and Dominican Republic the Amerindians didn't become extinguished but assimilated. The genetics of those countries show a high percentage of Amerindian markers. Amerindian culture still survives in some things like foods and placenames, but in general the Caribbean is a lot less Amerindian influence that both mainland Latin America and Canada. There is a large numbers of Cubans that are white, and they made perhaps 1/3 of the population.
I preffer Economic Revolutions, rather than killing people on the street, or torture them in the electric bed.
He is a new Robin Hood. People idealize these kind of guys, anyways.
If I don't like the country where I live I move somewhere else. I believe in the "free market of countries"
.See China! What a more represive country like that. And see how people have reacted. They are not losing theirs time in revolutions, or playing cowboy. They are working and pretty soon they will live better than the west. That's the way to do it. I believe.
Go to your next American Indian neighbourhood in the Western Provinces. Perhaps you'll realize then, something is going wrong with the multicultural ideology in your country.
As I see it, the Canadian government has made all the efforts possible to stop racism. However, there are many biggots between the common Canadian people.
That "admiration" came too late. For the Che, at least. lol.
If you do, sent me an e-mail.
Pinguin
Edited by pinguin - 04-Nov-2006 at 22:19 |
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ulrich von hutten
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Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 03:01 |
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Hasta La Victoria Siempre
First, i'm a little bit dissapointed , i read this thread to late.
The Commandante was a symbol, especially for the movement of the students in the western european countries of 1960 and 70s.
The important thing for those european "revolutionaries" was to liberate from the history of their parents, the wwII trauma and the surpression by the existing societies.
Che Cuevarra was idealised and used as an example of a fearless fighter against capatalismn. Although many of his events were ending as a flop. The cirtumstances of his death were the final reason for the glorification of Che.
Other revolutionaries preceded or followed, but no one had the carisma of Che. Not to mentioned that he was good looking, a not to underrate point of view, mostly for the few female comrades , which joined the student-movement at that time.
But if you read the biography of Che, you must accept, he did those things, many of the spokesmen of the students wouldn't have done.
To keep it in perspectives, i must say, Che did, what i only dreamed in my daydreams and therefore he will be in my heart for ever.
Let's put this way, a substitute for my own cowardice and inactivity.
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Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 08:53 |
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What has to do the Che with the children games of the Europeans upper-middle class students? Che Guevara was fighting for socialism, not playing with the daddies. He was not fighting for gay rights or for public marihuana smoking. His methods where not marching with colored ballons but killing! Those are another realities, indeed. Pinguin |
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