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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Democracy,compatible with huge population
    Posted: 30-Aug-2010 at 16:41
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Actually, the Bolsheviks had the support of the majority of the Russian people when they took power. Hitler also came to power democratically and had the support of the majority of the Germany people.
 
Hitler's party NSDAP had 36,8 % of votes in 1932 elections, so not majority. Hitler also lost presidential elections with Paul von Hindenburg.
 
 As for the bolsheviks they didnt have majority in all the Russia, they just had the support of soldiers and navy in St. Petersburg what gave them power in the way of armed rebellion.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2010 at 16:53
Originally posted by Carol

 
 
The USSR was democratic, and our media made a mess of things by making us believe communism is not democracy.


 
 
Hmmm, I see that I can learn here new things almost everyday....
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2010 at 20:19
Please Mosquito, do not make sense out of revolution? Please do not infer actualy facts into this discussion!

What? Are you crazy?

You must believe that Al Sharpton was the winner?




Although Big Al,can actually be a supporter!

Edited by opuslola - 30-Aug-2010 at 20:24
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2010 at 20:36
So, let us see, it seems that Glenn Beck, and anyone with numbers which exceed the numbers first given to us by CBS, et.al., which they (the Liberal press) estimated to be only about 87,000 persons, which to their glee, meant that the last "big one" on the mall which made nbthe Beck ralley as a second place rally, that the entire thing then went to hell!

Most non "progressive" sources contend that the crowd was in the figure of 300,000 to 500,000 thousand strong?

Just how well can you count this crowd?

Even at 87,000 this was a really big event, and at 200,000 it is one of the largest events of our times! And if the total numbers tend to support figures like 400, 000, then the Liberal Press will be hard pressed to dispute the real fact, and then they will be considered as, "biased!"

Edited by opuslola - 30-Aug-2010 at 20:38
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2010 at 20:48
It is so nice to have discussion with truly intelligent and well educated people. 
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_democracy

Soviet democracy or sometimes council democracy is a form of democracy in which workers' councils called "soviets" (Russian for "council"), consisting of worker-elected delegates, form organs of power possessing both legislative and executive power. The soviets begin at the local level and onto a national parliament-like assembly. According to Lenin and other ideologists of the Soviet Union, the soviets represent the democratic will of the working class and are thus the embodiment of the dictatorship of the proletariat

 
Unfortunately, these people are rarely found in these Internet forums. 
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2010 at 20:52
Originally posted by Carol

It is so nice to have discussion with truly intelligent and well educated people. 
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_democracy

Soviet democracy or sometimes council democracy is a form of democracy in which workers' councils called "soviets" (Russian for "council"), consisting of worker-elected delegates, form organs of power possessing both legislative and executive power. The soviets begin at the local level and onto a national parliament-like assembly. According to Lenin and other ideologists of the Soviet Union, the soviets represent the democratic will of the working class and are thus the embodiment of the dictatorship of the proletariat

 
Unfortunately, these people are rarely found in these Internet forums. 
 
the question is, do you really understand the meaning of those few sentences? There is also the other question you may try to answer: do you know the difference between the theory and practice?
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 07:58

Democracy is only compatible with an educated population. Also there has to be safeguards against Tyranny of the masses. A large uneducated population will lead to Mob Rule, and the few leaders that play to the populism of their constituency mass of rabble

 

Rabble Rabble rabble

 

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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 12:26
Originally posted by Mosquito

 
Hitler's party NSDAP had 36,8 % of votes in 1932 elections, so not majority. Hitler also lost presidential elections with Paul von Hindenburg.
 
That was in 1933. By 1939, The Germany people, for the most part, supported Hitler.

Originally posted by Mosquito


 As for the bolsheviks they didnt have majority in all the Russia, they just had the support of soldiers and navy in St. Petersburg what gave them power in the way of armed rebellion.


Again, this is wishful thinking. The Bolsheviks had the support of the majority of the Russian people, which included the military and navy. In fact, the Bolsheviks had so much legitimacy amongst the people that a coalition of Western powers aiding the White Army could not defeat them.

Originally posted by opuslola



Most non "progressive" sources contend that the crowd was in the figure of 300,000 to 500,000 thousand strong?


Only conservative sources make such claims (Sarah Palin contended it was 100,000 people, Beck said it was more than 500,000, Michele Bachmann said there was over 1 million people at Becks rally, which is simply ridiculous).

CBS actually hired a firm specializing in counting crowds to do an estimate. Two seperate counters were tasked with determining the crowd size, and independent of each other, one came up with 80,000 and the other with 87,000, CBS went with the larger figure.

As far as I'm considered, the professionals are correct, because I know that Sarah Palin, Beck, and Bachmann did not spend their time counting, but rather manipulating and lying to the ignorant masses who flock to them.

Originally posted by opuslola


Just how well can you count this crowd?


Here is a detailed account of the counting process, posted online by one of the counters:

http://stevedoig.com/archives/250

Originally posted by opuslola


Even at 87,000 this was a really big event, and at 200,000 it is one of the largest events of our times!


Not at all. President Obama's inauguration had almost 2 million people.

Originally posted by opuslola


 And if the total numbers tend to support figures like 400, 000, then the Liberal Press will be hard pressed to dispute the real fact, and then they will be considered as, "biased!"


Like I said, there are no facts to support figures higher than 100,000, as, coincidentally, Beck, palin, and Bachmann didnt hire anyone to count the crowd...interesting huh?

Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus I

Democracy is only compatible with an educated population. Also there has to be safeguards against Tyranny of the masses. A large uneducated population will lead to Mob Rule, and the few leaders that play to the populism of their constituency mass of rabble.


Which is what is happening in the US right now amongst the conservatives.



Edited by TheGreatSimba - 31-Aug-2010 at 12:44
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 12:48
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by Carol

 
 
The USSR was democratic, and our media made a mess of things by making us believe communism is not democracy.


 
 
Hmmm, I see that I can learn here new things almost everyday....
 
 
 
No kidding!  The media can be blamed for many things, this however isn't one of them.  Carol, I don't know where or how you came to the conclusion that the USSR was a democracy, but I seriously recommend that you rethink your position. I have several friends whose parents were Hungarian Freedom Fighters in 1956 who would probably barf at the suggestion. 
 
Time to dust off the copy of Animal Farm.  This is Historical Revisionism on Acid.  Tongue
 
 
 
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 15:28
TGS, in support of the talley done by someone hired by CBS news, a known neutral source for news, said this;

"Like I said, there are no facts to support figures higher than 100,000, as, coincidentally, Beck, palin, and Bachmann didnt hire anyone to count the crowd...interesting huh?"

I actually heard that Beck and Co., actually also hired a staff to count the numbers! What I think you need to do is to look at the photographs?

From my view of the festivities, I would guess that the crowd was well over 200,000!

But, as you should know, guesstimates are only what they show themselves to be, Guesses!

I am sure, if Washington Police that have covered other similar events were allowed respond, then my figure would be closer than that proposed by CBS's biased team!

In just about one hour and a half, Beck's TV show will be aired, and maybe he will release the figures his team estimated?

And just how about that neice of M.L. King, Jr.? Just got to love her!

How about you?


Edited by opuslola - 31-Aug-2010 at 15:32
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 15:49
Originally posted by red clay

Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by Carol

 
 
The USSR was democratic, and our media made a mess of things by making us believe communism is not democracy.


 
 
Hmmm, I see that I can learn here new things almost everyday....
 
 
 
No kidding!  The media can be blamed for many things, this however isn't one of them.  Carol, I don't know where or how you came to the conclusion that the USSR was a democracy, but I seriously recommend that you rethink your position. I have several friends whose parents were Hungarian Freedom Fighters in 1956 who would probably barf at the suggestion. 
 
Time to dust off the copy of Animal Farm.  This is Historical Revisionism on Acid.  Tongue
 
 
 
However, the Soviet constitution of year 1936 was one of the most democratic ever, the problem is that it was only the piece of paper without any weight in the practice. For example, according to Stalin's consittution of Soviet Union of year 1936 every Soviet Republic had the right to leave Soviet Union.
 
 
As well as the Polish constitution of year 1952, written personally by Stalin (there is even russian copy where he makes changes and corrections with his own hand). Stalin's consitution was so democratic, that Polish communists had to correct it in year 1978, adding into it that Poland is a socialist country, that communist party represents all the people and that Polad and Soviet Union are bound with friendship and permanent and unbreakable alliance  (because Stalin himself didnt write it).


Edited by Mosquito - 31-Aug-2010 at 15:54
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 16:20
Well fellows rather than attacking me, how about using logic and facts to argue whatever it is you think should be argued, then it might be possible to have an intelliegent discussion.   
 
Or perhaps you would like to discuss the second world war and  technocracy and the powers of government in the US, concidering this thread is about is  "Democracy,compatible with huge population"?  Like exactly what is democracy and what are the powers and responbility of government?  What do you think of changes in the US government resulting from Hoover and Roosevelt's  changes in government powers?  How did adopting the Prussian beaurcratic model change our government orgainzation?  Come on fellows tell me what know.  
 
Perhaps I should say, I do not believe having the vote means the people have power, especially not when they know very little and can be easily deluded.   I wonder how such discussions will go if the US economy continues to worsen. 


Edited by Carol - 31-Aug-2010 at 18:04
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 16:52
Originally posted by opuslola

TGS, in support of the talley done by someone hired by CBS news, a known neutral source for news, said this;


CBS did not come up with the statistic, they hired a company which specializes in the task to do so, a company whose figures conservatives have also used in the past. This is what a responsible news agency does.

Originally posted by opuslola


I actually heard that Beck and Co., actually also hired a staff to count the numbers!


If so, then please show me the source. Show me the statistics.

Originally posted by opuslola


From my view of the festivities, I would guess that the crowd was well over 200,000!


Well you have an untrained eye and you are not a expert at making crowd estimations. There are experts in this field whose job it is to make such estimations, and its not simply just looking and guessing, there is a process involved.

Originally posted by opuslola


I am sure, if Washington Police that have covered other similar events were allowed respond, then my figure would be closer than that proposed by CBS's biased team!


How do you know? As far as I know, every time the police give an estimate, the conservatives complain. Last time the police also said it was less than what the conservatives reported.

For example, at the 9/12 rally, most news outlets, including the DC fire department, reported that there was around 75,000 people at that rally.

Interestingly, just like with the 8/28 rally, conservatives themselves cant even agree. Two organizers of the 9/12 rally gave two different numbers, one saying that the rally had between 200,000 and 300,000 people and the other organizer saying there were between 600,000 to 800,000.

So Opuslola, I ask you this, why are we getting such drastically different numbers from different conservatives (Palin: 100,000, Beck: 500,000+, Bachmann: 1 million+)?

Because they are all just making them up.

The only real source so far, the only organization that actually took up the task of counting, says the number was at 87,000 with a margin of error of 9,000.

Until a real source emerges contending otherwise, there is no reason to doubt this particular statistic. So as far as I know, and considering that Beck, Palin, and Bachmann are liars, I'll take that statistic until there is another source for me to consider.

Originally posted by opuslola


In just about one hour and a half, Beck's TV show will be aired, and maybe he will release the figures his team estimated?


Yes, and I would also like to know the source, not just him going on TV and saying it.




Edited by TheGreatSimba - 31-Aug-2010 at 17:00
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 17:35
500,000! And I believe him over you or any source you would care to mention!

Actually TGS is you told me the Sun was shining here today, I would look for an umbrella!

Love ya guy!
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 17:41
May be we should get more specific to the question?
 
How to govern a large mass of people?
 
Give everyone a number.  Now set up a testing system so they can be tracted through education.  Pass the "No Child Left Behind Act" that requires schools to give military recruiters children's names and addresses.  Mandate banks varify people's addresses before giving them bank accounts and it is good that libraries do this too.  Pass a priavcy act that prevents family from knowing anything about family, unless there is a specific court order  for that a family to have information, and then make sure the persons phone and address have not changed, every time this person does anything involving medical care.   Require everyone to carry state authorized ID, and do not not sell them alcoholic beverages or cigarettes nor get on a Grey Hound bus or airplane without showing this ID.   Centralize the production and distribution of what people consume.  Hum, what else might me need to govern them?  Maybe check what the put on the Internet? 
 
I hope I am saying things politically correctly and do not get banned for saying the wrong thing.  Of course if I do, that is not as bad as loosing my career for saying the wrong thing.  God forbide someone have a lapse in judgment in what s/he says, even if it is said in private.
 
Oh I almost forgot, be sure everyone reports on their family and neighbors if they suspect any kind of abuse and let the "authorities" investigate and decide if action needs to be taken.  Make everyone with a job dealing in some form of human service, manatory reporters, with the threat of them loosing their job if they fail to resport even a suspicion of abuse.  Surely, they make no conncetion between this and NAZI Germany, because they know our government would never do anything wrong, and we are good people, not like those Germans.  Ermm
 
Oh education for a technological society with uniknown values, preparing the young to be products for industry is a good idea too, like technocracy.  Hey, this is just being efficient.  With test we can path and tract the children, and determine those best suited for higher education and those who are not.  Our technological society demands this.  No problem, we have everything under control, because we know the masses require our good governence and protection.  Dead 
 
Hail the Bush family and the New World Order.  Reagan was almost a God.  Can you imagine what might have happened if he hadn't built up our military might.  We might have missed "The Power and Glory" of bombing the hell out of Iraq, and defending our nation in Afghanistan.   Yeah, we are good, we are good.   Not like those Germans of the Japanese who foolishly thought their countries were worth dying for. 
 
We are a democracy- no, the US was never a democracy, it is a republic.  But, but we are spreading democracy around the world.  Shut up and do your research, but don't look at information more than 10 years old, because it is outdated and useless.    Also be sure your information is  approved- it is best to rely on the abstracts, so you know you are getting good information.  Got that, use the Abstracts and nothing older than 10 yesrs old.  And ban anyone who irritates people by saying the wrong thing. 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 17:54
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Originally posted by opuslola

TGS, in support of the talley done by someone hired by CBS news, a known neutral source for news, said this;


CBS did not come up with the statistic, they hired a company which specializes in the task to do so, a company whose figures conservatives have also used in the past. This is what a responsible news agency does.

Originally posted by opuslola


I actually heard that Beck and Co., actually also hired a staff to count the numbers!


If so, then please show me the source. Show me the statistics.

Originally posted by opuslola


From my view of the festivities, I would guess that the crowd was well over 200,000!


Well you have an untrained eye and you are not a expert at making crowd estimations. There are experts in this field whose job it is to make such estimations, and its not simply just looking and guessing, there is a process involved.

Originally posted by opuslola


I am sure, if Washington Police that have covered other similar events were allowed respond, then my figure would be closer than that proposed by CBS's biased team!


How do you know? As far as I know, every time the police give an estimate, the conservatives complain. Last time the police also said it was less than what the conservatives reported.

For example, at the 9/12 rally, most news outlets, including the DC fire department, reported that there was around 75,000 people at that rally.

Interestingly, just like with the 8/28 rally, conservatives themselves cant even agree. Two organizers of the 9/12 rally gave two different numbers, one saying that the rally had between 200,000 and 300,000 people and the other organizer saying there were between 600,000 to 800,000.

So Opuslola, I ask you this, why are we getting such drastically different numbers from different conservatives (Palin: 100,000, Beck: 500,000+, Bachmann: 1 million+)?

Because they are all just making them up.

The only real source so far, the only organization that actually took up the task of counting, says the number was at 87,000 with a margin of error of 9,000.

Until a real source emerges contending otherwise, there is no reason to doubt this particular statistic. So as far as I know, and considering that Beck, Palin, and Bachmann are liars, I'll take that statistic until there is another source for me to consider.

Originally posted by opuslola


In just about one hour and a half, Beck's TV show will be aired, and maybe he will release the figures his team estimated?


Yes, and I would also like to know the source, not just him going on TV and saying it.


 
Okay, okay the exact number of people matters why?
 
We are talking about governing a large mass of people.  What we need is a city ordinance that makes it illegal for more than 15 people to gather without a city permit.  My city has such an ordiance, and why would a good citizen object to this protection of civil peace and order?   Please, do carry your ID and be ready to show it.  
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 18:01
Gracious Carlos, I just don't know what to make of you? At one time or another you seem to bounce from one side of the political spectrum to the other?

As Yoda might have said; "Confused, I am!"

But, perhaps it is all in just my perception of you and your posts?

Now if you were a young woman, then I might well think differently?
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 18:11
TGS mentioned me when he said;

"Well you have an untrained eye and you are not a expert at making crowd estimations. There are experts in this field whose job it is to make such estimations, and its not simply just looking and guessing, there is a process involved."

Actually TGS, during the campaign for president in 1992, I was mostly assigned to cover the activities of W.J. Clinton, and I was present at numerous rallies where multiple thousands were congregated!

I have also been to sporting events, and other political events, where crowds of 100,000 or so were present, so I have a pretty good guess when it comes to crowds!

Also, as a last and not a minor point, I have actually walked around the "Mall" area, in front of the Lincoln Memorial and the Reflecting Pool, etc., it is a vast space!

But, perhaps your past is also full of such first hand considerations?

But, you believe just what you want to believe!

Truth is far from anything which you could imagine!
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 18:19
Originally posted by opuslola

500,000! And I believe him over you or any source you would care to mention!


And how easy the masses flock to some of the most vile people. Beck is Hitler, and the Tea Partiers are the sheep that will allow him to commit the most terrible of crimes.

Originally posted by opuslola



Actually TGS, during the campaign for president in 1992, I was mostly assigned to cover the activities of W.J. Clinton, and I was present at numerous rallies where multiple thousands were congregated!

I have also been to sporting events, and other political events, where crowds of 100,000 or so were present, so I have a pretty good guess when it comes to crowds!

Also, as a last and not a minor point, I have actually walked around the "Mall" area, in front of the Lincoln Memorial and the Reflecting Pool, etc., it is a vast space!


None of this makes you an expert. The fact that you think this would even remotely make you qualified to make such estimates makes you look foolish.


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 31-Aug-2010 at 18:22
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 18:37
I would rather be called "foolish" by you than "God" by another! After all you have self appointed yourself as the "only recognized expert" at this site!

Hail TGS, Hail, TGS!. etc.!

Just when can I be expected to report to your progressive re-education camp?
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