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The Crescent and star...

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Crescent and star...
    Posted: 13-Dec-2004 at 13:04
What does the crescent and moon symbols represent? What are their historical ancient roots?
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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2004 at 07:36

i got the following from wikipedia

The crescent is also often used to symbolize the Islamic faith. However, it should be noted that the crescent was not a symbol used for Islam by Muhammad or any other early Muslim rulers, in fact the Islam is against appointing "Holy Symbols". Despite that the 5-branch star is quite often used as the symbol of the Islam.

The crescent originated with the Turks and their Shamanistic past in which they used to worship celestial symbols and was first seen on the flag of the Ottoman Empire. Since then it has gone on to be used on the flags of Algeria, Comoros, Mauritania, Pakistan, Malaysia, Tunisia, Turkey and other Turkic/Islamic nations.

A Red Crescent substitutes the Red Cross in Islamic countries (but for pre-revolution Iran). But it is interesting to notice that very few Arab nations use the symbol. Morocco, which has never known the Turkish occupation, has only a 5-branch star on its flag. The new, American-designed, post-Saddam Iraqi flag uses that symbol as well.

This is of importance, since many Christian fundamentalists such as Jack Chick use this symbolism to make a claim that Allah was in fact a moon-god worshipped by the pre-Islamic Turks. This argument is sometimes used to argue that the god of Islam is different from that of the Jews or Christians.

 

it is my first time to know that christan fundamentalists looking at Allah as different god or inventing such stories.

 

 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2004 at 10:27

To the right you see the flag of Turkiye. There are many imitators, but they are just that... Due to the 1,000 year fight of Muslim Turk and Christian Europe, the symbols have come to be mistakingly representative of Islam by Europeans and now the world. The Crescent Moon and Star (Sun during the Ottoman Empire) are ancient Turkish celestial symbols of power originating from the Turkish, ancestoral lands of Siberia and Central Asia.

Its origins are not Arabic or Persian and it can not be Islamic due to the strict, religious doctrines forbiding the usage of any symbols or the painting/drawing/sclupting of human faces... these very important religious facts are disregarded today by those trying to claim the Moon & Star as their own today.

Needless to say, the origins of the Crescent & Sun/star are in fact Turkish from ancient times, pre-Islamic. The Turks believed in Shamanisim and more importantly the one supreme Sky God (Tanri) along side others gods like that of the Moon & Sun, when they roamed nomadicaly on horseback in the steppes of Siberia & central Asia.

In the 10th century, the Turks accepted Islam on their own will and conquered the Middle East. Witin a few centuries, the Turks became extremely powerful and strected an empire from the gates of Vienna, Austria, Russia all the way to Spain in the west. They brought into Islam their own free spirit, dynamizm, Turkish culture, superstitions and serious beliefs as well. This is the origin of how the Crescent Moon & Star came into the Islamic world.

 The importance of the celestial bodies can be seen in many Turk epics, poems, songs, names etc... One quick example is that of the legendary leader of the Western Turks, Oguz Khan, named his first 3 born Sun, Moon, & Star emphasizing the importance of the celestial objects to Turks. The founder of the Ottoman Turkish empire, Osman, had a dream in which he invisioned a Crescent Moon stretching over the Earth, he took it as a good sign and made it the symbol of his dynasty. Where ever a Turkish army met with a Euro-Christian one, of course it would be seen that the Turks used a Moon and Europeans assumed that this was the symbol of Islam used by muslim people. [this was wrong of course, as I said no symbols are allowed, but Turks quite often incorporated their own beliefs and free spirit regarding the religion]

 So, over the 1,000 year fight of Muslim Turk and Christian Europe, the symbols have come to be mistakingly representative of Islam by Europeans and now the world. The Crescent Moon and Star are ancient Turkish celestial symbols of power originating from the Turkish, ancestoral lands of Siberia and Central Asia. You see for a 1000 years Turks were the warriors, the leaders of Islam so it is not unusual that our symbols have been adopted by many present-day countries that are by a majority muslim. But it doesn't mean that the symbols are Islamic or muslim. Unfortunately, this confusion will most likely never be cleared up. It is very deep in the minds of the world, even the Muslim world.

Interesting note: The representative color of all Turks in the world is Skyblue or Turquiose, but we have also ascribed color to the four cardinal directions (North=Black, East=SkyBlue, South=White, & West=Red). Therefore, the Red background is used to indicate that we are the most geographically western of our family. (Over time and among the folk, the color has also come to represent the Turkish blood shed over the centuries of warfare.)

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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2004 at 18:44

it is my first time to know that christan fundamentalists looking at Allah as different god or inventing such stories.

But didn't the name of Allah, come from a southern arabian deity, who was the head of his pantheon? (Not trying to be like a fundie, as I recognize that Allah is now recognized as the God of Abraham.)

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Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.
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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2004 at 23:34
Originally posted by Oguzoglu

Interesting note: The representative color of all Turks in the world is Skyblue or Turquiose, but we have also ascribed color to the four cardinal directions (North=Black, East=SkyBlue, South=White, & West=Red). Therefore, the Red background is used to indicate that we are the most geographically western of our family. (Over time and among the folk, the color has also come to represent the Turkish blood shed over the centuries of warfare.)

How fascinating.  The Chinese also ascribe colors to the four winds: Black North, Blue East, Red South, White West, plus Yellow Center.

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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2004 at 03:32

 

i dont think Islam is against the Crescents  since we still have lots of mosques with Crescents on top of the Minarats

i got my first msg from Wikipedia ( it was the closest defenition i found )

for the definition of Allah please check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah

it is Closest defenition but not the best ( i dont agree on some )

it is more original than the word God since Jesuse himself pronounced alla as Ellah which is Allah but in Aramatic acent

Arabic and Aramatic are like Spanish and Italian.

 

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2004 at 03:51
Jack Chick, that wonderfully culturally accepting archon of knowledge told me it was an old pagan deity represented in the moon in his little mini comics that should be federally mandated to guide our lives.
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  Quote Fizzil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2004 at 09:06

Jack Chick is trying too hard to be serious....

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2004 at 09:11
It is partly true, but dont forget to look at paganistic deities and symbols in every religion. Christians still show satan with a big fork and two horns as a pagan symbol. Also the cross has an ancient paganistic history...
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2004 at 18:16
Originally posted by MengTzu

Originally posted by Oguzoglu

Interesting note: The representative color of all Turks in the world is Skyblue or Turquiose, but we have also ascribed color to the four cardinal directions (North=Black, East=SkyBlue, South=White, & West=Red). Therefore, the Red background is used to indicate that we are the most geographically western of our family. (Over time and among the folk, the color has also come to represent the Turkish blood shed over the centuries of warfare.)

How fascinating.  The Chinese also ascribe colors to the four winds: Black North, Blue East, Red South, White West, plus Yellow Center.



Isn't White East and Blue West?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2004 at 10:00

No. You can understand it from current Turkish language. We call medeterinnean as "AKDENZ" which means white sea, we call Black Sea as "KARADENZ" which means black sea, and that name is given by Turks...

Also red sea's name and Caspian Sea's names are given by Turks. We call caspian sea "Hazar Denizi", which takes its name from the Turkish khanate of Hazar...

 

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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2004 at 01:31

Also red sea's name and Caspian Sea's names are given by Turks. We call caspian sea "Hazar Denizi", which takes its name from the Turkish khanate of Hazar...

The name of the Caspian Sea in turkish comes from Khazar, but the name Caspian Sea in English come from the Kaspians, an ancient Iranic tribe.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2004 at 01:41
Yes, sorry for my English. I wanted to tell that Turks call it Hazar Sea, not all world uses this name...
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  Quote Berosus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2004 at 04:41
I was of the impression that the crescent symbol came from ancient Iraq.  Ur, the home town of Abraham, worshiped a moon-god named Nanna under the Sumerians, and Sin under the Babylonians, and we know that these people were trading with the oldest Arab cities, like Ubar, as early as 900 B.C.   Later on, up until the time of Mohammed, each Arab tribe had different names for the gods, but the moon god was usually the most important.  Hence, the crescent is a carry-over from the pre-Islamic Arab (Sabaean) religion into Islam, and likely an import from the nearest advanced civilization.

By the way, the blue crescent that I use for a logo is supposed to be a Babylonian crescent, not Arab, Islamic or Turkish.  The first forum where I participated, back in 1997, discussed Babylonian history, and it became my online symbol, so I have used it since.
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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2004 at 04:51

 Sabaean was the kingdom in south arabia??

 

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  Quote Berosus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2004 at 20:38
Yes, the Sabaean kingdom existed in what is now Yemen.  I've heard the name also used for the indigenous religion practiced in and around Mecca before Mohammed.  Several historians, from Gibbon onward, have used the term "Sabaean' to distinguish it from the forms of paganism practiced elsewhere.

For what it's worth, many Bible scholars think that the Queen of Sheba came from there, due to similarities in the names.  The Three Wise Men may have been Arabs, too, because Arabia is about the only place where you can find all three of the gifts they brought (gold, frankincense and myrrh).


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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2004 at 22:34

 

in Islamic stories kingdom of Saba was worshipping the Sun as per the news the brid brought to Prophet Sulyman (king solomon in christan stories).

and around Mecca before Mohammed (PBUH) their was three religions the Idol worshippers who belived in God but they belived that the Idols are like the connection between people and God.

the other two religions were christans and Jews

i think the persians religion was there too but may be they didnt come to arabia.

 

and by the way who are these three wise men??

 

 

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2004 at 02:08
Originally posted by Fizzil

Jack Chick is trying too hard to be serious....

 

the sad thing is people do take him seriously!

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I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2004 at 13:38
Originally posted by azimuth

and by the way who are these three wise men??

 

they were actually kings, named Casper, Melchior and Balthasar

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  Quote Infidel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2004 at 08:17
Who attend Jesus' Birth at Bethlehem. They're part of the Christmas lore and tradition. They got there following a falling star in the skies for weeks/months and as they arrived each one offered a gift to the newborn "king". Incense, gold and myrrh (I guess).
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