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Alexander and India

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Hellios View Drop Down
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Alexander and India
    Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 16:24
Originally posted by The Chargemaster

Could Alexander have conquered the rest of India if his troops had shared his desire for conquest and curiosity?

With his reduced army and in defiance of the big casualities?!
No way.

 

Thanks for staying on topic Chargemaster.

 

I believe the downsizing of the army before leaving Persia was intentional, because it was too big to navigate through the terrain ahead.  Any army operating in that terrain would be limited (in terms of size) by the terrain, not just his.

 

The 'fear of casualties' rarely stopped the ancient Greeks from going into battle, as long as the troops felt the battle was justified.  They refused to go further into India because they felt that the only cause for the continuation of the Indian campaign was Alexander's curiosity, and some other reasons (see opening post of the thread). 

 

Naturally, all soldiers have some fear of dying - it's human nature, but the ancient Greeks did a decent job of making their soldiers able to defeat this fear.  Modern day Greeks tied themselves to their battle posts during some independence wars so they wouldn't run if they fell into a state of temporary shock.  Ancient Spartans, when going off to war, were informed by their mothers that if they didn't win, they would no longer be welcomed back into their homes.

 


Edited by Hellios - 11-Oct-2006 at 16:49
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 16:47
Originally posted by Anujkhamar

I don't think the problem is with the naming of the subcontinent, but with the naming of the Republic of India. But please try to stay on topic, there is already a topic on this.

Back to my "what if alexander actually managed to pull it off" I don't believe it actually makes any big difference to history.

My Scenario
After Alexander's death the empire will split up anyway, this is inevitable. There will be very little different to Seleucus Nicator's empire. A new state will emerge, similar to that of Maurya, and the rest will be similar to the rest of history
.
 
Heh Anujkhamar, quite probably.
 
I was just reading about the Mauryan Empire, and Hellenistic India & Pakistan...interesting stuff...I'm going to look for other threads on that now.
 


Edited by Hellios - 11-Oct-2006 at 16:52
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  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 17:21
Ok, but I do suggest you dont look pay close attention to the recent topics in the South Asia forum. I havnt been on much and in that time its because a battleground for pointless chats. Start from the back of the forum if you plan on reading it.

Back to your original question, I agree with Vivek's post above about climate change. Are his troops experienced in fighting in tropical jungles, mountains and the other terrain?

Actually I have a link for you that I bookmarked. In the discussion the discuss whether or not it could be done if Alexander waited a few years. Here it is

http://heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=10,5636,,all

The post was begun by Ghorkali, who used to help run the South Asia forum
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 17:38
That's good advice Anujkhamar.  You fellas should weed out those threads your talking about.  It's a history forum, any political attacks should be against the rules and weeded out, or confined to a specific section (political debates).
 
I'll check out that thread you recommended, thx again.
 


Edited by Hellios - 11-Oct-2006 at 21:06
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  Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 18:17
I don't think he could have conquered all of India with the army that he had at that time. There are a few reasons why I think so...

1. Alexander lost a substantial amount of phalangites at the battle of Hydapses river which composed some of his best and most experienced men in his army. Moreover his army was tired at best and had no desire to fight any longer.

2. Porus was just a local king at the time and still was capable of mustering a strong opposing force that hurt Alexander's campaign more than any of his previous battles againts Persia. The Nandas a kingdom in eastern India alone could muster as much as 5000 elephants, imagine if Alexander fought all the rest.


3. The climate of India would make it very difficult for a foreign army to be able to conquer it. Heavly forested, muddy, hot and humid it would be a nightmare for heavily armored phalangites and companions to progress far into this territory.

Now if Alexander goes back to Babylon, manages to resupply his army with new soldiers from Macedon and the Greek cities, convinces the conquered Persians to join him but most importantly stays alive himself then the situation could be different. If he decides to go for India instead of Italy that is...
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 00:59
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

This so called pakistan is just one of those fragments of the earlier India.

But off course not for you.

For the rest of the world.


 
It would be the other way round. Earlier India was Pakistan (as the ancient Greeks knew it), and during the later Indo Greek period, bits of the modern day India gradually were added onto the Greek and Roman knowledge of the Indian subcontinent. You could say Pakistan was the core of India. This is what the rest of the world, who have done some research of history would know, not just the misleading modern geographical naming of the subcontinent.


I never said you are wrong, only the world things differently. But on the whole I agree with you. Not only the ancient India, we belive even today they are same. Only a matter of time before history is repeated & that region again comes back to where it had been since thousands of years. Ruled by delhi & related areas.
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 02:41
Originally posted by vulkan02



Now if Alexander goes back to Babylon, manages to resupply his army with new soldiers from Macedon and the Greek cities, convinces the conquered Persians to join him but most importantly stays alive himself then the situation could be different. If he decides to go for India instead of Italy that is...
 
Fair enough.
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 04:05
IFs & Buts will never end. that comes under the category of amusement.

What if while he went back, the persians, the egyptians etc..... came together with the indians who had already defeated him once to conquer & divided greece with china leading the war ?
 
Such jokes can go forever.


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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 04:15
Alexander left a long lasting impact on India. Emperor Chandragupta Maurya who defeated Seucas Nicator after Alex's death got Selucas's beautiful daughter in marriage as one of the agreements in compromise. The other being that Selucas will leave the all Indian territories forever & rule persia & him being gifted 500 war elephants by Chandragupta to help him fight the rebels in his empire.

What is important is that Chandragupta started a clan that had some of the best emperors modern india has had so far. Including the famed Ashoka the great, who contributed to spreading Buddhism all over the world.

This lineage was half greek, half indian as they had been born to Greek mother (Selucas's daughter) & Indian father (Chandragupta). this Greek part in the lineage possibly led to a lot of  Greek influence in that part of cultural history.

Chandragupta maurya's personal bodyguards were composed of Greek  Women  loyal to the daughter of Selucas specially trained as an elite corps by Chanakya. This was done by Chandragupta's Godfather Chanakya to avoid any clash of interests as Greeks would not have any affiliation with any other indian king who opposed Chandragupta.




Edited by Vivek Sharma - 12-Oct-2006 at 04:18
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 04:35
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma


Chandragupta maurya's personal bodyguards were composed of Greek  Women  loyal to the daughter of Selucas
 
!!!
 
More please... is this fact or fiction?
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 04:51
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

Chandragupta maurya's personal bodyguards were composed of Greek Women loyal to the daughter of Selucas specially trained as an elite corps by Chanakya.
 
Fascinating.
 
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 06:32
Originally posted by Yiannis

Originally posted by Vivek Sharma


Chandragupta maurya's personal bodyguards were composed of Greek  Women  loyal to the daughter of Selucas
 
!!!
 
More please... is this fact or fiction?


Fact.

Reason was Chandragupta's Mentor Vishnugupta Bhatt, Chanakya.

Chanakya was a sort of super shrewed Brahamin. In fact what is know as Chandragupta's empire was really his empire. Chandragupta merely being an instrument in his hands for achieveing his objective, since Bhatt Brahamins were teachers & not supposed to rule or be material.
Chandragupta had become the undisputed supremo  of India  without fighting wars.  By sheer politics of Vishnugupta, he got a huge empire. The only time he had to fight really was against Selucas Nicator, which he won.




Edited by Vivek Sharma - 12-Oct-2006 at 06:33
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  Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 12:07
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

IFs & Buts will never end. that comes under the category of amusement.

What if while he went back, the persians, the egyptians etc..... came together with the indians who had already defeated him once to conquer & divided greece with china leading the war ?
 
Such jokes can go forever.




Wasn't the original question of this thread pertaining to the "ifs and buts"?


Edited by vulkan02 - 12-Oct-2006 at 12:09
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  Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 12:11
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma



The only time he had to fight really was against Selucas Nicator, which he won.


It cant be called a defeat of Seleucus.
It was rather a draw.-He was just unable to win (like Israelis in Lebanon
      ).
According to the treaty signed he got some 300 war elephants in order to not claim the territory which Alexander conquered before him.
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 01:51
The objective of Chandragupta Mauraya attacking Selucas was to send him outside India & add the Indian territories to the mauryan empire, in whichhe was fully successfull.

The treaty signed between them was designed by the founder of this mauryan empire Vishnugupta Bhatt. It involved Selucas Nicator giving his daughter in marriage to Chandragupta Maurya (Vishnugupta insisted on a marriage alliance as this was the best way of securing the western & northers frontiers of the mauryan empire. His philosophy was that he didn't want his army to be tied up with guarding this vast border as he had more important things to do back home. what better way to guard your frontier than have your queen's empire on the other side !!!)

As a gesture of friendship between the two empires (Greek & Indian) now related by marriage, indians offered 500 war elephants to Selucas to help him fight the rebellions in his provinces. This was done as Vishnugupta Bhatta realised that a strong & stable Greek empire was in the best interests of both India & Greece, as he himself had a lot of work to be done in his kingdom & didn't want to run the risk of having numerous small unstable kingdoms on his borders.



 
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 07:02
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

The objective of Chandragupta Mauraya attacking Selucas was to send him outside India & add the Indian territories to the mauryan empire, in whichhe was fully successfull.

The treaty signed between them was designed by the founder of this mauryan empire Vishnugupta Bhatt. It involved Selucas Nicator giving his daughter in marriage to Chandragupta Maurya (Vishnugupta insisted on a marriage alliance as this was the best way of securing the western & northers frontiers of the mauryan empire. His philosophy was that he didn't want his army to be tied up with guarding this vast border as he had more important things to do back home. what better way to guard your frontier than have your queen's empire on the other side !!!)

As a gesture of friendship between the two empires (Greek & Indian) now related by marriage, indians offered 500 war elephants to Selucas to help him fight the rebellions in his provinces. This was done as Vishnugupta Bhatta realised that a strong & stable Greek empire was in the best interests of both India & Greece, as he himself had a lot of work to be done in his kingdom & didn't want to run the risk of having numerous small unstable kingdoms on his borders.
 
Vivek, our countries' historical connections are so rich Tongue
 
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 07:36
Yes Hellios, Further Selucas's daughter brought with herself her friends & maid servants whom Vishnugupta trained to be fierce warriors & turned them into an elite personal bodyguard division of Chandragupta Maurya in the royal palace.
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  Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 08:18
Maid guards ?interesting :) !
As for the elephants given,thats obviously a part of a treaty,
even if presented as "gesture of friendship"-there are not friendships in international relationships.
If Seleucus was utterly beaten,there wouldnt be place for such huge receive (hundreds of elephants were a really huge military weapon ,ready for use towards the other Diadochoi)
The fact is that Gupta's achieved their primary goals,and Seleucus understood that there were not many things to gain there,since he had other dangerous rivals to deal with.
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  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 08:32
Just so you know, they are not the Gupta's. The Gupta empire was another empire in India a few hundred years later. I plan on writting an article on it shortly.
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  Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 08:44
I though Chandra-gupta and Vishnu-gupta ,belonged to the Gupta dynasty (maurya / gupta).
Is it any connection to the two dynasties then ?(Gupta and Maurya)
ps:Its funny the way greek writers "made greek" the name of Chandragupta->"Sandrakotos" (!)
(like Assurbanippal->"Sardanapalos")
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