Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
Hellios
Arch Duke
Joined: 25-Sep-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1933
|
Quote Reply
Topic: Alexander and India Posted: 06-Oct-2006 at 23:06 |
Could Alexander have conquered the rest of India if his troops had shared his desire for conquest and curiosity?
Foot-note to question:
"At the battle vs Porus - 1 of the powerful Indian leaders - the Indians were defeated (even though they fought with war elephants, which the Macedonians didn't have). Alexander captured Porus & (like other rulers he defeated) allowed him to continue ruling his kingdom. Alexander also conquered an independent province & granted it to Porus as a gift.
His next goal was to reach the Ganges River. His troops, however, had other thoughts...
...they had heard tales of powerful Indian tribes living on the Ganges and remembered the difficulty of the battle with Porus.
...they felt that the continuation of the Indian campaign was unnecessary - it's only cause being Alexander's curiosity.
...they had left Macedonia (too many years ago) to punish Persia (for previous atrocities), & they had not only punished it, they had even conquered it. It was time to go home.
...they had seen their king start to behave like a Persian & tolerated his behavior. Now he was starting to become enamored with India.
...they had invaded India & conquered Gandara & Pauravas, but now were being asked to fight in faraway Magadha (which had never belonged to the Achaemenid empire) & was thought to be situated at the edge of the earth.
So, they refused to go any farther east.
Alexander was extremely disappointed, but he accepted their decision, although he did manage to persuade them to travel south down the Hydaspes & Indus rivers.
Along the rivers they stopped to conquer territories. 1 of the territories at which the army stopped belonged to the Malli, who were said to be one of the most warlike of the Indian tribes. Alexander was wounded several times in this attack, most seriously when an arrow pierced his breastplate and his ribcage.
During this trip, Alexander sought out the Indian philosophers (the Brahmins) who were famous for their wisdom, & debated them on philosophical issues.
Alexander & his army reached the mouth of the Indus in July 325 BC, and turned westward for Babylon."
Edited by Hellios - 12-Oct-2006 at 04:59
|
|
TeldeInduz
General
Joined: 07-Mar-2006
Location: Paraguay
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 857
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Oct-2006 at 04:26 |
Two points.
1) Alexander conquered Pakistan.
2) There were no Brahmins in this Pakistani area when Alexander conquered it.
|
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
|
|
Turkali
Immortal Guard
Joined: 07-Oct-2006
Location: Azerbaijan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Oct-2006 at 04:57 |
Indian army was a crapy army but macedonian were exhusted and tired and wnated to come back to their home
|
|
Anujkhamar
Chieftain
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1027
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Oct-2006 at 06:22 |
Originally posted by Turkali
Indian army was a crapy army but macedonian were exhusted and tired and wnated to come back to their home |
Proof? Sources? Nope. Thought not.
|
|
Hellios
Arch Duke
Joined: 25-Sep-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1933
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Oct-2006 at 06:36 |
Originally posted by TeldeInduz
Two points.
1) Alexander conquered Pakistan.
2) There were no Brahmins in this Pakistani area when Alexander conquered it. |
Please research "Alexander India".
|
|
TeldeInduz
General
Joined: 07-Mar-2006
Location: Paraguay
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 857
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Oct-2006 at 06:45 |
Originally posted by Hellios
Originally posted by TeldeInduz
Two points.
1) Alexander conquered Pakistan.
2) There were no Brahmins in this Pakistani area when Alexander conquered it. |
Please research "Alexander India".
|
Please research where the Hydaspes & Indus River is.
Edited by TeldeInduz - 07-Oct-2006 at 06:46
|
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
|
|
Hellios
Arch Duke
Joined: 25-Sep-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1933
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Oct-2006 at 07:14 |
I'm confused; why are some people saying that Alexander didn't reach India? All sources fround within 30 seconds, and there are countless others to the same effect:
Edited by Hellios - 07-Oct-2006 at 07:18
|
|
Anujkhamar
Chieftain
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1027
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Oct-2006 at 07:24 |
While you two discuss the existance of Brahmins....
I have one point to make out. Hellious you claimed Porus was one of the strongest "Indian" kings (Telde and most other Pakistani's will call him a Pakistani king, but thats not what we're arguing here). I disagree with you. Porus' kingdom was reletavly small and simply put weaker than other Indian kingdoms.
The argument is that Alexander had such a hard time defeating such a small kingdom (comparred to the others) then how was he going to beat Kingdoms like Magadha?
Also you stated he faced Elephants for the first time with Porus. I was under the impression that he met some while in Persia. Also note, these Elephants he met were imported from "India". The number of Elephants that Magadha possesed was much great than Porus. Imagine 100 Elephants (this number is just an example) charge at a formation of Phalanxes. Who's going to win? Obviously the Elephants as nobody could survive a stampede such as that. The formation would be broken apart almost instantly.
My opinion is, no Alexander could not defeat Magadha at that point in time. His troops are exhausted, he is in a new tropical climate on foriegn terrain where he litterally has to fight for every meter of land he wants to claim. He does not have as much troops as he had while facing the Persians or even Porus. He is thousands of miles away from Persia, imagine the supply problems?
If he had a chance to go back, regroup and come back it may be a different story.
edit:
To end this confusion about Pakistan and India to you Hellious let me sum it up. The author of the websites above refer to India as a geographical location ie the Indian Subcontinent. Most Pakistani's claim a seperate historical and political identity to Indians, which is why Telde is claiming he only reached Pakistan. If you use his logic, it's true. Alexander did not reach lands occupied by the present Republic of India.
Edited by Anujkhamar - 07-Oct-2006 at 07:27
|
|
TeldeInduz
General
Joined: 07-Mar-2006
Location: Paraguay
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 857
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Oct-2006 at 07:48 |
Originally posted by Hellios
I'm confused; why are some people saying that Alexander didn't reach India? All sources fround within 30 seconds, and there are countless others to the same effect:
|
Alexander conquered up till the Indus River. He did not go beyond it. The River Indus is in modern day Pakistan, not India. The ancient Greeks called the region of Pakistan, "India" - in fact this does not mean India in the modern sense.
|
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
|
|
TeldeInduz
General
Joined: 07-Mar-2006
Location: Paraguay
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 857
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Oct-2006 at 07:55 |
Originally posted by Anujkhamar
While you two discuss the existance of Brahmins....
I have one point to make out. Hellious you claimed Porus was one of the strongest "Indian" kings (Telde and most other Pakistani's will call him a Pakistani king, but thats not what we're arguing here). I disagree with you. Porus' kingdom was reletavly small and simply put weaker than other Indian kingdoms.
The argument is that Alexander had such a hard time defeating such a small kingdom (comparred to the others) then how was he going to beat Kingdoms like Magadha?
Also you stated he faced Elephants for the first time with Porus. I was under the impression that he met some while in Persia. Also note, these Elephants he met were imported from "India". The number of Elephants that Magadha possesed was much great than Porus. Imagine 100 Elephants (this number is just an example) charge at a formation of Phalanxes. Who's going to win? Obviously the Elephants as nobody could survive a stampede such as that. The formation would be broken apart almost instantly.
My opinion is, no Alexander could not defeat Magadha at that point in time. His troops are exhausted, he is in a new tropical climate on foriegn terrain where he litterally has to fight for every meter of land he wants to claim. He does not have as much troops as he had while facing the Persians or even Porus. He is thousands of miles away from Persia, imagine the supply problems?
If he had a chance to go back, regroup and come back it may be a different story.
edit:
To end this confusion about Pakistan and India to you Hellious let me sum it up. The author of the websites above refer to India as a geographical location ie the Indian Subcontinent. Most Pakistani's claim a seperate historical and political identity to Indians, which is why Telde is claiming he only reached Pakistan. If you use his logic, it's true. Alexander did not reach lands occupied by the present Republic of India.
|
The Maghada werent that powerful. Chandragupta overran them about the same time as Alexander?..not sure about this, he might have just assasinated the Nandas. Maghada vs Porus? Porus was weakened by Alexander's invasion, then the Maghada took over under Maurya. But the Nanda Maghada versus Porus probably wasnt that different in strength, else Maghada would have overrun Porus's kingdom.
Porus didnt beat Alexander but he wasnt far from it. If Gandhara had combined with Paurava Alexander wouldnt have got very far.
Edited by TeldeInduz - 07-Oct-2006 at 08:16
|
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
|
|
Hellios
Arch Duke
Joined: 25-Sep-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1933
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Oct-2006 at 08:32 |
Originally posted by Anujkhamar
While you two discuss the existance of Brahmins....
I have one point to make out. Hellious you claimed Porus was one of the strongest "Indian" kings (Telde and most other Pakistani's will call him a Pakistani king, but thats not what we're arguing here). I disagree with you. Porus' kingdom was reletavly small and simply put weaker than other Indian kingdoms.
The argument is that Alexander had such a hard time defeating such a small kingdom (comparred to the others) then how was he going to beat Kingdoms like Magadha?
Also you stated he faced Elephants for the first time with Porus. I was under the impression that he met some while in Persia. Also note, these Elephants he met were imported from "India". The number of Elephants that Magadha possesed was much great than Porus. Imagine 100 Elephants (this number is just an example) charge at a formation of Phalanxes. Who's going to win? Obviously the Elephants as nobody could survive a stampede such as that. The formation would be broken apart almost instantly.
My opinion is, no Alexander could not defeat Magadha at that point in time. His troops are exhausted, he is in a new tropical climate on foriegn terrain where he litterally has to fight for every meter of land he wants to claim. He does not have as much troops as he had while facing the Persians or even Porus. He is thousands of miles away from Persia, imagine the supply problems?
If he had a chance to go back, regroup and come back it may be a different story.
|
I claimed? Yes, I didn't quote, so you're right. I read several versions of Alexander's India campaign from decent encyclopedias, top university history professors, etc., (not from wikipedia or other forum posts), and they indicate that Porus' kingdom was not as weak as portrayed in your post. I don't doubt that there were more powerful Indian kingdoms.
The fact that he had a hard time defeating Porus didn't necessary mean inevitable defeat with the other kingdoms. Don't forget that Alexander had a system of military integration whereby he integrated the techniques, weapons, and fighters, of armies he conquered along his campaigns. His ability to relate with other cultures made this very easy for him to do. He incorporated war elephants into his army after Porus, and learned how Indians did battle, all things that could have been used against the other tribes. His army at that point would have been a superb amalgamation of the best of each kingdom conquered since he had left Greece. What it lacked was the troops' spirit to go on.
Where had Alexander's army done battle against mounted war elephants in Persia? Interesting!
I like your opinions, well expressed.
His army had a good supply system wherever they went. When the decision was being debated (in India) about weather or not to continue eastward, supply worries were not a critical factor in the decision from what I've read. The factors are what I've highlited in red in the opening post.
Edited by Hellios - 08-Oct-2006 at 17:55
|
|
Hellios
Arch Duke
Joined: 25-Sep-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1933
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Oct-2006 at 08:53 |
Originally posted by Anujkhamar
The author of the websites above refer to India as a geographical location ie the Indian Subcontinent. Most Pakistani's claim a seperate historical and political identity to Indians, which is why Telde is claiming he only reached Pakistan. If you use his logic, it's true. Alexander did not reach lands occupied by the present Republic of India.
|
Thanks for this info. Strange that so many of the top encyclopedias, academic institutions, and historians talk about "India", not just "Indian Subcontinent". I don't think the majority of the academic community uses Telde's logic.
Edited by Hellios - 07-Oct-2006 at 09:00
|
|
TeldeInduz
General
Joined: 07-Mar-2006
Location: Paraguay
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 857
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Oct-2006 at 09:02 |
Originally posted by Hellios
Originally posted by Anujkhamar
The author of the websites above refer to India as a geographical location ie the Indian Subcontinent. Most Pakistani's claim a seperate historical and political identity to Indians, which is why Telde is claiming he only reached Pakistan. If you use his logic, it's true. Alexander did not reach lands occupied by the present Republic of India.
|
Thanks for this info. Strange that so many of the top encyclopedias, academic institutions, and historians talk about "India", not just "Indian Subcontinent". I don't think the majority of the academic community uses Telde's logic.
|
Why would they use my logic? I'm speaking purely from a nationalistic viewpoint, not an academic viewpoint! Most academics wont care whether it's Indian, Pakistani or whatever. But for me, it's Pakistani history, not Indian history. Just as Brahmagupta is Pakistani history, not Indian history, and so many other instances that are easily confused.
Edited by TeldeInduz - 07-Oct-2006 at 09:03
|
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
|
|
Ikki
Chieftain
Guanarteme
Joined: 31-Dec-2004
Location: Spain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1378
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Oct-2006 at 10:33 |
In that moment, Alexander couldn't go far away, but if he stop a moment, build his empire and of course, live, surelly he could go into the rest of India, as the greeks of the grekobactrian kingdom advanced until Pataliputra.
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Oct-2006 at 01:14 |
Very different time. The Greeks of Menander's time were locals living there for generations, who knew their enemies and knew the land. Alex was none of the above.
|
|
Penelope
Chieftain
Alia Atreides
Joined: 26-Aug-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1042
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Oct-2006 at 07:45 |
Even if he had lost in India or any other place, he would still be known as Alexander The Great.
|
|
Anujkhamar
Chieftain
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1027
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Oct-2006 at 08:55 |
I just had a thouhgt. Imagine Alexander was able to conquer the entire subcontinent. How do you think that will change history? (i'll add my own version later, to compare).
|
|
jayeshks
Earl
Joined: 04-May-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 281
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Oct-2006 at 10:16 |
Originally posted by Anujkhamar
I just had a thouhgt. Imagine Alexander was able to conquer the entire subcontinent. How do you think that will change history? (i'll add my own version later, to compare).
|
Hmm...reminds me of a what if the Persians had won at Marathon or Salamis or Platea type scenario. India was notoriously difficult for native Indians to unite, it would've been a nightmare to administer from outside. I don't think it much Greek influence would've been passed down as it would've been the last part of the empire to be conquered and likely the first part to break away.
|
Once you relinquish your freedom for the sake of "understood necessity,"...you cede your claim to the truth. - Heda Margolius Kovaly
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Oct-2006 at 10:21 |
Quite a lot of greek influenece was passed down as it was.
|
|
Hellios
Arch Duke
Joined: 25-Sep-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1933
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Oct-2006 at 18:05 |
Originally posted by Anujkhamar
I just had a thouhgt. Imagine Alexander was able to conquer the entire subcontinent. How do you think that will change history? (i'll add my own version later, to compare). |
Perhaps the impact on history would've been more positive than negative because Alexander had a habit of allowing the rulers he conquered to continue ruling their kingdoms, and the civilizations to continue their own ways? I get the impression that his true intentions were not to eradicate other cultures (like some other conquerors), but perhaps to compliment them with his.
Edited by Hellios - 08-Oct-2006 at 18:19
|
|