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Founder of the Chin(Jurched) Dynasty descended from Silla noble?

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warhead View Drop Down
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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Founder of the Chin(Jurched) Dynasty descended from Silla noble?
    Posted: 07-Feb-2005 at 01:38

"Look before you leap.  In page 1 of this very post, reply 10, lies the contradiction to your claim.  It's also Chinese sources.  Every one of them.  ANd it was you who said in the thread "battle of talas" that chinese sources tend to be more reliable"

 

What contradiction? You haven't even given the name of this "source" yet, wild history is competely irrelevant. So what if they are Chinese? Primary and secondary is not categorized by nationality its time that they are written.

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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2005 at 01:47

"ANd it was you who said in the thread "battle of talas" that chinese sources tend to be more reliable"

 

I said that because the Chinese were the ones that documented their army, the Arabs merely glanced it. IT has nothing to do with whether how accurate the Chinese source is. In fact Korean documents are the same style and are just as accurate. I don't see how you could use this as an argument on accuracy.

But I will concede that I've missed a sentence in your reply about the origin f your source, so I appologize, but the evidence is still too limited to make any solid conformation.

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Mystic View Drop Down
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  Quote Mystic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2005 at 02:10
Sorry but until somebody can provide a VALID source that argues the ancient Jurchens were Koreans or that the founder of the Jurchen Jin empire was descended from a Korean noble, I don't think this argument can be taken any further in a serious manner. You guys are getting worked up over nothing. By valid sources I mean written published academic material, not just some random internet postings.


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  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2005 at 21:34

Originally posted by cliveersknell

The Jin or Jurchens were never part of Silla or Koguryo.
They threatened the Silla, Parhae, and Koguryo dynasties
the same way they threatened the Song dynasty.
The Jurchens originated from the amur valley , they are
distantly related to the mongols and Kidanians, for they all came from the same root, the Xianbei tribe.

Clive

 

Jurchens weren't the descendants of the proto-Mongolian speaking Xian-bei. Khitans were originated from Yu-wen xian-pei, who in fact were the descendants of both Xian-bei and Xiong-nu, just like Toba xian-bei.

 

 



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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2005 at 07:34

What contradiction? You haven't even given the name of this "source" yet, wild history is competely irrelevant. So what if they are Chinese? Primary and secondary is not categorized by nationality its time that they are written.

You know, think the problem here is about communication.  The names of the sources are written in Chinese as they are supposed to.  I didn't want to put the korean pronounciations that often, because it won't make sense.  If not, we'll going to debate whether "Quishihuang" is equal to "JinShiHuang", and whether "Qin" is "Chung" or whether "Chiang Kai Shek" is "Jang Ge sok", when they are the same word in chinese but with different pronounciation.  You know, kind of the way how mandarin and cantonese differ in how it is pronounced but the word matches.

Or if you just see scribbles rather than chinese characters, tell me.  I'll try to figure out what's wrong with the unicode.

This excerpt was written in Kubliai khan's reigime(), there is a written book() about Jin dynasty ()

Hong Ho, known diplomat who was sent in year 1129 to exchange the captured Song Emperor HumJong(), has written a history book in his book, Song Mak Ki Moon (خڤ)

Kubliai Khan's country(I say this because I don't remember what the dynasty's name was ) had a bright intellect by the name U moon Mu So (), who wrote the cultures and traditions of Jin in the book Gum-Ji()

Excerpt from Manchu-origin-writing(ػ׵) from Qing () Kwon Rung() year 43 1778 via Hwang Myong (٤)

If I still didn't answer what you wanted me to answer, then the problem is related to communication, or what you want to say to me.

======

Actually the Khitan were the ones to give the gifts of Camels to Goryeo.

-.-  Kind of confuses me because they are mostly referred as Go Ran all the time.  At least, almost all the time.

I said that because the Chinese were the ones that documented their army, the Arabs merely glanced it. IT has nothing to do with whether how accurate the Chinese source is. In fact Korean documents are the same style and are just as accurate. I don't see how you could use this as an argument on accuracy.

Sorry about that.  I don't think I have more to say in this one. 

But I will concede that I've missed a sentence in your reply about the origin f your source, so I appologize, but the evidence is still too limited to make any solid conformation.

I know.  It's just a theory I wanted to share, because It has become quite popular over recent days, at least when I posted it.  The creator of Jin being Korean is still being debated. 

Sorry but until somebody can provide a VALID source that argues the ancient Jurchens were Koreans or that the founder of the Jurchen Jin empire was descended from a Korean noble, I don't think this argument can be taken any further in a serious manner. You guys are getting worked up over nothing. By valid sources I mean written published academic material, not just some random internet postings.

It would be helpful If you can define what is written published academic material, and what is internet posting.

Grrr..
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Mystic View Drop Down
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  Quote Mystic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2005 at 02:04

"It would be helpful If you can define what is written published academic material, and what is internet posting."

published academid material:

John King Fairbank- China- A New History
Jonathan Spence- In Search of Modern China
Patricia Ebrey-The Cambridge Illustrated History of China
Jacques Gernet-A History of Chinese Civilization
J. A. G. Roberts- A Concise History of China

Random internet posting with little or next to no validity:
http://www.tparents.org/Moon-Talks/sunmyungmoon90/UM901021 .htm
http://www.littlefox.co.kr/en/diary/jeayun_041001a.htm

Just to give you an example.

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