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Founder of the Chin(Jurched) Dynasty descended from Silla noble?

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  Quote mongke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Founder of the Chin(Jurched) Dynasty descended from Silla noble?
    Posted: 03-Jan-2005 at 18:38
I still do not get  how aguda could be related to Shilla?  It's very confusing.
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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2005 at 00:54

Actually Demon Barhae was toppled by the Khitan...not the Jurchens.

Just realized that.    Damn...and I'm too lazy to go back and correct that specific phrase.

I still do not get  how aguda could be related to Shilla?  It's very confusing.

Just think this- most/every part of Jin is manchurian.  Just the leader is from Shilla. 

Grrr..
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  Quote mongke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2005 at 14:24
Silla fell in 935AD the Jin was not established until 1114AD or some time around then. That's almost 2 centuries. 
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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2005 at 11:30

Silla fell in 935AD the Jin was not established until 1114AD or some time around then. That's almost 2 centuries. 

keep in mind that one of the sources I wrote said something like 'Shilla and Koryo were the same thing and thus were interchangeably used'

And it is known by the sources that he did come out from Koryo. <> ΣҴ׿,  T֣ͯ׺ . (History of Jin: Founder is called Hambo; he came from Koryo iat his 60's and his brother Agohobol didn't follow and stayed in Korea)

The certain problem is how much generation between Ma Yi Teja and Agolta.  But it could also be that Agolta was not shilla blooded but followed his korean heritage, naming it after the king of shilla. 

But not perfectly sure.  All we know is what's written as fact.

 

 

Grrr..
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  Quote mongke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2005 at 10:49

Dam! Koryo should have united with the Jin to form a super Jin-Koryo state

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2005 at 17:57
Hehe that would have been fun wouldn't it?
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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2005 at 20:59

 BS

There are many first hand sources written by the Jin themselves as well as the Yuan. There is no need to consult other fanatical sources and wild theories when the authentic record of Wan Yen Aguda was clearly a Jurchen tribe descended from the Wan Yen cln which has been in record since the 11th century of Liao history. The clan chief is from Silla? Show me the primary source that records that and give me the name.

"They did NOT thread Koryo the same way as Song.  "

And h

 

"FE, Jurchens considered Koryo as their BROTHER, ask them to GET AWAY FROM SONG.  "

The Jin also called Song its brother, its a political ruse commonly used for good relations. 

"That's because Jin considered themselves "Sons of Koguryo". "

And what fanatical source would that be?

 "It's logical because their tribe was part of Koguryo- in manchu. "

No one even know what the Jurchens spoke exactly, there are theories that Jurchens back then are not even related to modern Manchus and was largely wiped out or assimilated during the Yuan and Ming from anthrolopology studies conducted in BeiJing.

 

"However, Koryo did NOT like Jin because they toppeled Barhe(Bohei), another Korean estate.  "

The Jin didn't, the Qi Dan did.

 

 

 

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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2005 at 06:21

Warhead - whatever you say. 

Just show me your primary sources that saids "founder of Jin dynasty is not from Shilla/Koryo" -.-

Grrr..
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  Quote babyblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2005 at 06:34
Originally posted by demon

Warhead - whatever you say. 

Just show me your primary sources that saids "founder of Jin dynasty is not from Shilla/Koryo" -.-

   he doesn't have to 'cause he didn't creat a thread claiming "founder of Jin dynasty is not from Shilla/Koryo"

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2005 at 13:29
Actually yea Demon..I would like to see your sources...you're the only one who seems to know something about this...
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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2005 at 15:32

he doesn't have to 'cause he didn't creat a thread claiming "founder of Jin dynasty is not from Shilla/Koryo"
Good point.

try reply 10

Grrr..
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  Quote babyblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2005 at 05:12
Originally posted by demon

he doesn't have to 'cause he didn't creat a thread claiming "founder of Jin dynasty is not from Shilla/Koryo"
Good point.

try reply 10

huh?

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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2005 at 23:52

"Warhead - whatever you say.  "

 

Yes it is whatever I say since the primary sources don't lie

 

"Just show me your primary sources that saids "founder of Jin dynasty is not from Shilla/Koryo" -.-"

 

 

The very fact that it says nothing easily conclude it isn't.


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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2005 at 12:05
Originally posted by warhead

the primary sources don't lie

 

I hope you don't study documents from Nazi Germany, otherwise you'll think that Jews are inferior because primary sources can never be wrong....

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  Quote Mystic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2005 at 15:02
Based on what I've studied in Chinese history, the Jin dynasty was founded by the Jurchen (nuzhen) tribes who were ancestors to the Manchus that eventually found the last imperial Chinese dynasty of the Qing. Nowhere does any of the sources I've read published nor online mentions that the founder of the Jin (Wanyan Aguda) descended from a noble of the ancient Korean kingdom. So with that said, I really can't take such a notion in a serious manner based on an academic point of view. No more than I can take a Nordic nationalist claim that Chinese civilization was founded by caucasians due to the tocharian mummy founded in Eastern Turkestan.

http://www.travelchinaguide.com/intro/history/jin_dynasty/
http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Song/jinn.html
http://www.e-paranoids.com/j/ji/jin_dynasty__1115_1234_.ht ml
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  Quote Mystic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2005 at 15:10
Originally posted by warhead

 
The very fact that it says nothing easily conclude it isn't.



Not necessarily true either. Historical sources omits many important details at times but I can see your point. So far I've yet to read a source both published or on the internet about the origins of the founder of the Jin dynasty descending from a Shilla noble. This is also not a minor detail either because if it were indeed true, it would definitely be mentioned by most academic sources the same way sources mention Genghis Khan to be a Mongol.  So unless somebody can come up with a valid source, I think a claim should be taken with a grain of salt.
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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2005 at 20:20

"I hope you don't study documents from Nazi Germany, otherwise you'll think that Jews are inferior because primary sources can never be wrong.... "

 

You completely missed my point, which is not primary source are always correct but that its the most reliable in term of historical analysis. When there isn't even the slightest mentioning of Silla and Jin, then there isn't.

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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2005 at 20:54

"Not necessarily true either. Historical sources omits many important details at times but I can see your point. So far I've yet to read a source both published or on the internet about the origins of the founder of the Jin dynasty descending from a Shilla noble. This is also not a minor detail either because if it were indeed true, it would definitely be mentioned by most academic sources the same way sources mention Genghis Khan to be a Mongol.  So unless somebody can come up with a valid source, I think a claim should be taken with a grain of salt."

There are sources saying that all korean and japanese people were descended from the huangdi as well. the jerchens were the jerchens that had nothing to do with ancient koreans.

because they had nothing to do with ancient koreans. why would there be anything written that says "the jerchens were not the koreans"?

it's just logically wrong to ask for a source that says "the jerchens were not ancient koreans"

just as i am unable to find a source that says "the jerchens were not from the moon". "the jerchens were not from australia" etc.

it's such a ridiculous thought that no one's written anything that says "the jerchens were not ancient koreans" because it's just an undisputed fact in most's minds except for a few korean extremists.

some articles might say that they were because they were written by those types of people.

i can start writing an article saying that the koreans were descended from the vietnamese as well.

and i can post it here. and i can ask someone to provide a source that says the koreans people were not descended from the vietnamese just like demon did to warhead. and no one will be able to find anything.

if i really do that, i will call myself an idiot.

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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 19:21

Yes it is whatever I say since the primary sources don't lie

Look before you leap.  In page 1 of this very post, reply 10, lies the contradiction to your claim.  It's also Chinese sources.  Every one of them.  ANd it was you who said in the thread "battle of talas" that chinese sources tend to be more reliable

it's just logically wrong to ask for a source that says "the jerchens were not ancient koreans"

Old Choson was North Korea + manchuria.  I see no reason why they weren't.

it's such a ridiculous thought that no one's written anything that says "the jerchens were not ancient koreans" because it's just an undisputed fact in most's minds except for a few korean extremists.

It is as rediculous as seeing how some Chinese scolars at that time agreed to it.

====

EDIT: All right.  Seeing how so many people in this forum never used the prev>> button ever, I've decided to press it myself and extract the raw data, so everyone can see what I've done long ago and what these people tried to deny:

Originally posted by reply 10

He's referring to wanan Agolta ( ), founder of Jin Dynasty, what Koreans call Gau-ran/Yau Jin.  And he , according to Korean sources, IS a Korean

According to some historians, Agolta was Shilla's last King, Ma-yi Teja's son.  Reasons?  Start with the name "Jin".  It means gold.  Now Shilla King's last name was Kim (it was Park from the founder Park Hyok Gu Sae but after unification it was replaced with the kim family).  What a coincidence. 

"Wanan" was called to Shilla Kings.  Same with Jin Dynastly's kings.  Wow.  nice coincidence

Also, there was an incidence where Jin wanted a pact with Korea, giving hundreds of camels as a gift.  THe King of Koryo, not wanting a pact with so called "barbarians", starved them to death. But we see that these Jin people are un usually kind to Koryo people.  Why would that be so?

This excerpt was written in Kubliai khan's reigime(), there is a written book() about Jin dynasty ().  It goes like:

(ȡ Ѻ1, Ѻ)

Founder of Jin is Hweega Hambo(Chinese pronounciation of wanan Agolta), and he first came from Koryo

---

Hong Ho, known diplomat who was sent in year 1129 to exchange the captured Song Emperor HumJong(), has written a history book in his book, Song Mak Ki Moon (خڤ).  Its excerpt:

Ҭ

Yau Jin's founder is Shilla origin, with the surname Wanan, Wanan is the same stuff as Hanun's King. {remember that Wanan was called to SHilla kings-Hanun is split as Han and Un, Han referrign to Koreans}


---

Kubliai Khan's country(I say this because I don't remember what the dynasty's name was ) had a bright intellect by the name U moon Mu So (), who wrote the cultures and traditions of Jin in the book Gum-Ji().  An excerpt goes like:

The first cheif was a Shilla, called Wanan, and wanan is the same thing as Hanun's king.

---

The previous excerpts were all from Kubliai Khan's country (uhh...was it wang dynasty or won dynasty????can't remember still), non Korean source.

----

Excerpt from Manchu-origin-writing(ػ׵) from Qing () Kwon Rung year 43 1778 via Hwang Myong٤

ݣ[] [Ҭ ܬ]

Jin's origin is Hweega Hapbu (before it was said hambo) and he first arrived from Koryo.  (watching two sources Tongo and DeGumGukJi, they all arrived conclusion that he came from Shilla, its king with the last name Wanan.  BTW, shlla and Koryo has got its land mixed up and thus Jin and Yau just randomly use the countires name- same stuff)

---

Kum Sa(), THE OFFICIAL HISTORY EXCERPT FROM JIN DYNSTY, starts out with these excerpts:

ڨ ڨ ͯ 慎 ڨ ݻ ݻ 咄 ݻ ݻ ݻ ݻ ݻ ߣ ݻ ݻ 並 ݻ ڤ ݾ ٿ ߣ 為 ί ݤ ݤ ׿ 慎 ޵ ݾ ܲ ؿ ݤ ݻ 為Դ Խ Դ Խ ٣ 強 絕 ӡ ݾ ӡ ӡ ҳ ӡ ҳ ҳ ˰ ߣ ˰ ף ˰ ߣ Ҵ ׿ ͯ ׺ Լ 顏 ݻ

Since its too longs, I'll abridge the passage.  It starts out saying Jin's ancestors originated from Malgal.  That Malgal was part of Koguryo.  ~condensed~ Jin's founder is named Hambo, and he came from Koryo, at age over 60. His brother Agohobul stayed in Koryo and it was said that though their sons shall meet he will not go.  He lived with brother BoHwali.  The founder of Jin lived in Wananbu Bokgansu while Bohwali lived in Yarwe.

I hope anyone rang their bells -.-;



Edited by demon
Grrr..
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 19:47
Actually the Khitan were the ones to give the gifts of Camels to Goryeo.
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