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Greeks indigenous?

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  Quote chicagogeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Greeks indigenous?
    Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 16:42
 

The theory of Indo-European origins in Southeast Europe from an earlier Anatolian source has received additional confirmation recently. Using a methodology similar to that used in evolutionary biology, Gray and Atkinson [Language-tree divergence times support the Anatolian theory of Indo-European origin, Nature 426, 435-439] compared 95 present and past languages of the Indo-European family based on a list of 200 basic terms for each.

The main idea of this innovative work is that languages that diverge from a common source initially tend to have similar vocabularies, but as time progresses, new terms replace older ones, and thus the intersection between the vocabularies of the languages is reduced. This principle can be used to determine the branching pattern of the language family, as well as to time the various splits in the tree. The authors were able to vary many parameters of the input automatically, thus taking into account the many uncertainties of this difficult problem in a systematic manner.

The results of all analyses, irrespective of the initial assumptions were very robust:

We test two theories of Indo-European origin: the 'Kurgan expansion' and the 'Anatolian farming' hypotheses. The Kurgan theory centres on possible archaeological evidence for an expansion into Europe and the Near East by Kurgan horsemen beginning in the sixth millennium BP7, 8. In contrast, the Anatolian theory claims that Indo-European languages expanded with the spread of agriculture from Anatolia around 8,0009,500 years BP9. In striking agreement with the Anatolian hypothesis, our analysis of a matrix of 87 languages with 2,449 lexical items produced an estimated age range for the initial Indo-European divergence of between 7,800 and 9,800 years BP. These results were robust to changes in coding procedures, calibration points, rooting of the trees and priors in the bayesian analysis.

The branching pattern is also in agreement with an independent linguistic analysis of Indo-European languages [Rexova, K., Frynta, D. & Zrzavy, J. Cladistic analysis of languages: Indo-European classification based on lexicostatistical data. Cladistics 19, 120127 (2003)].

The estimated times strikingly confirm the Neolithic dispersal theory, showing a divergence of Indo-European languages from Anatolian ones, with an independent branching of the mysterious Tocharian language which spread eastwards, and the descent of all other languages from what is almost certain to be a Balkan homeland:

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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 17:00
Just add some quotes from the mentioning  theory  (Russell D. Gray & Quentin D. Atkinson  Language-tree divergence times support the Anatolian theory of Indo-European origin, Nature, Vol 426, 27 NOV 2003 ) that  claim generally  that the pattern and timing of expansion suggested byfour analyses  is consistent with the Anatolian farming theory of Indo-European origin. Radiocarbon analysis of the earliest Neolithic sites across Europe suggests that agriculture arrived in Greece at some time during the ninth millennium BCand had reached as far as Scotland by 5,500 years BC.
 
In the same work the writers claim that the Hittite lineage diverging from Proto-Indo-European around 8,700 years BC, perhaps reflecting the initial migration out of Anatolia. Tocharian, and the Greco-Armenian lineages are shown as distinct by 7,000 years BC, with all other major groups formed by 5,000 years BC.

This scenario is consistent with recent genetic studies supporting a Neolithic, Near Eastern contribution to the European gene pool. The consensus tree also shows evidence of a period of rapid divergence giving rise to the Italic, Celtic, Balto-Slavic and perhaps Indo-Iranian families that is intriguingly close to the time suggested for a possible Kurgan expansion. Thus, as observed by Cavalli-Sforza et al., these hypotheses need not be mutually exclusive.



Edited by akritas - 08-Jun-2007 at 17:04
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  Quote chicagogeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 19:30
Here is a theory of Indo-European migrations.





4500BC -- Eneolith -- 3500BC





3500BC -- Early Bronze -- 2500BC



2500BC -- Middle Bronze -- 1800BC





1800BC -- Late Bronze -- 1200 BC





Hammond, Griffith, and Borza amongst other notable historians speculate that the pool of Proto Greek speakers were settled in Epirus and Western Macedonia before they also spread further south. Any thoughts on this theory?




Edited by chicagogeorge - 08-Jun-2007 at 19:48
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 21:16
So, some theories suggest a common bundle that gave birth to Greek, Phrygian and Armenian speakers?


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 21:21
Originally posted by chicagogeorge





Hammond, Griffith, and Borza amongst other notable historians speculate that the pool of Proto Greek speakers were settled in Epirus and Western Macedonia before they also spread further south. Any thoughts on this theory?




Well, the theory about collecting in Epirus is very common. As for the Dorians, they are well recorded by many to follow the same route. They were forced to migrate from the central greece to the northern parts and then they came back after hundreds years of isolation.


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  Quote chicagogeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 21:38
Originally posted by Flipper

So, some theories suggest a common bundle that gave birth to Greek, Phrygian and Armenian speakers?


That's what seems to be suggested. Do you think Armenians proceeded into Asia Minor then followed by the Phrygians? I know there is a myth that places Armenians north of Thessaly.
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 15:36
Originally posted by chicagogeorge

Originally posted by Flipper

So, some theories suggest a common bundle that gave birth to Greek, Phrygian and Armenian speakers?


That's what seems to be suggested. Do you think Armenians proceeded into Asia Minor then followed by the Phrygians? I know there is a myth that places Armenians north of Thessaly.


Yes! I do...The Phrygians seem to be something like the middle between Greeks and Armenians.

What about the myth about? I think Herodotus mentioned something as well but i can't remember.


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  Quote chicagogeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 17:49
There is an ancient story of the Armenian race to this effect: that Armenus of Armenium, a Thessalian city, which lies between Pherae and Larisa on Lake Boebe, as I have already said,26 accompanied Jason into Armenia; and Cyrsilus the Pharsalian and Medius the Larisaean, who accompanied Alexander, say that Armenia was named after him, and that, of the followers of Armenus, some took up their abode in Acilisene, which in earlier times was subject to the Sopheni, whereas others took up their abode in Syspiritis, as far as Calachene and Adiabene, outside the Armenian mountains. They also say that the clothing of the Armenians is Thessalian, for example, the long tunics, which in tragedies are called Thessalian and are girded round the breast; and also the cloaks that are fastened on with clasps, another way in which the tragedians imitated the Thessalians, for the tragedians had to have some alien decoration of this kind; and since the Thessalians in particular wore long robes, probably because they of all the Greeks lived in the most northerly and coldest region, they were the most suitable objects of imitation for actors in their theatrical make-ups. And they say that their style of horsemanship is Thessalian, both theirs and alike that of the Medes. To this the expedition of Jason and the Jasonian monuments bear witness, some of which were built by the sovereigns of the country, just as the temple of Jason at Abdera was built by Parmenion.

Strabo, Geography


Strabo talks about the story of Armenus who accompanied Jason in Armenia. In other words at the time of Argonautic expedition which of course happened centuries *before* the Macedonian migration from Pindos and *obviously* at the time being, Thessalians were "in the most northerly and coldest region" since Macedonia didnt exist.
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 22:05
Awesome!

So, the Armenians could have been the last leftovers of the Phrygians in pre-Macedonia and Thessaly?

The datings you talk about make all sense...I had missed that part of Strabo completely!


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  Quote Southerneighbr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 23:08
  The Armenians?That is all Greek to me....I dont get itLOL
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  Quote chicagogeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 00:11
Originally posted by Flipper


 Awesome!

So, the Armenians could have been the last leftovers of the Phrygians in pre-Macedonia and Thessaly?


Possibly, Strabo is referring to a very ancient memory of tribal movements. If we are to agree with Indo-European linguists that ancient Hellenic, Armenian, and possibly Phrygian stemmed from the same pool of Indo-Europeans, than on of two things occurred. A) They split early on in the balkans and the Armenians and Phrygians migrated into Asia Minor. Or B), they split occurred somewhere else. Maybe north of the Black Sea, or in Asia Minor, and thus Greeks migrated into the Balkans from that point. I tend to believe the former, since the Armenians aren't mentioned by historians until relatively late. The people who inhabited what became Armenia were the Hayasa

Originally posted by Flipper


The datings you talk about make all sense...I had missed that part of Strabo completely!


Strabo is referring to the journeys of Jason and the Argonauts. They are said to have taken place a few generations before the Trojan war. So probably around 1400 b.c.?



Edited by chicagogeorge - 10-Jun-2007 at 00:36
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 12:08
Jason lived in the generation before the Trojan War.  His son Euneos is mentioned in the Illiad as assisting the Achaeans. (Illiad, Book 7.469).
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  Quote chicagogeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 12:26
Originally posted by Sharrukin

Jason lived in the generation before the Trojan War.  His son Euneos is mentioned in the Illiad as assisting the Achaeans. (Illiad, Book 7.469).


You are right. Thank you. So if we are to take Strabo's story literally, than Proto Armenians moved into Asia Minor closer to 1250b.c. This is what I found on the Armenians.......


All evidence of historical information came from Greek Historians. One of those famous scholars names Xenophone, gave the first information about Armenia and of Armenian People then others followed: Herotodus, Belos and Houtinos.
 

The following paragraphs will give us three theories of Armenian Origin.
 
The first theory was from Herotodos, the Greek historian who lived and wrote his history in 300-270 B.C. and speaks about Armens during the war between Persia & Greece. He has been in the army and personally collected all the information and dates of history. According to him, Phrygians were form of Indo-European tribes. They came from Balkan Peninsula to Macedonia and Thracia. This immigration is dated 1200-1300 B.C. They stayed in this geographical area, but by the time they moved towards Capadocia (1) and Araradian Ashkhar (2), the Armens became one of the Phrygian Tribe. Hovhanness Catholicos who was an eminent Armenian Historian agrees to this itinerary, but both historians do not give any source of their information.
 
Another Greek Historian Blenus gives some more information and details. For him these Phrygians have been immigrated from central Asia, from the Russian plateau to the Danubian shores, then to the Balkans, Greece, then to Armenia. He gives another name to this Phrygian tribe, he calls them Askanas. Other scholars accept this especially because the Bible states that the Askanas were Phrygians and Armenians.
 
Armens came to Armenia when the Hittitian Kingdom was destroyed; at the time Greeks were establishing cities in Asia Minor. At the same time period a barbarian tribe called Scythians came from the north and destroyed the Urartu Kingdom. Urartu was the famous Kingdom and Civilization in the Araradian Territories. Urartu's leaders were wise and had powerful Kings who ruled from 885-535 B.C. and created a very rich heritage. Scythians attacked the Armens in 617-609 B.C., but the Armens gained their friendship and survived. They got the privilege over other tribes, even forced their nationa and moral characteristics over the local people, including Urartus and Nayiries.
 
 
The second theory is from the famous Greek geographer Strabo, who wrote his history in the 2nd Century B.C. He speaks about a history book, written by two generals from Alexander the Great's Army, Girlos of Pharsala and Medios of Lareso. They gave the name of a certain country called Thessalia, were there was a city called Armenia, and the King's name was Armenos. Armenos with another King Jasos came to Armenia and won a very big war. They conquered the country and by his name the people became Armens. But this view is rejected, because Alexander the Great has never been in Armenia. His generals could not have known this to give eyewitness information; besides it is not clear if Stropon had seen nor read the book.
 
The third theory is legendary and belongs to the great Armenian poet and historian Movses Khorenatzi. According to Khorenatzi there was a famous Assyrian scientist Mar Appar Gadina, who was assigned by the Armenian King Vagharshak to go to Persia and to find out Armenian History. Gadina went to Persia, where in the Kings library he discovered the " History of the First Ancestors". That study, according to Khorenatzi was in Greek and Mar Appas Gadina translated into Assyrian. But we do not have neither Greek nor Assyrian versions of that book. In this "Book" Khorenatzi sees and develops Haig's legend and states that our country is called Hayastan and because of Haig, Armenians are called Hays. The Bible says Haig was the grandson of Japhet, son of Noah.
 
After giving all these points of view, it is possible to conclude by saying that Armens came from Europe with Phrygians and settled in Armenia by 800 B.C. We call ourselves Hye or Hay, because the Hayassa tribe were more advanced by culture and were the oldest tribe in that area, from the14th century. According to Atontz the Greeks first called Armenians "Armens", found the name in the history of Greek Historian Hegedios in 7th century B.C. Armen or Armenia is mentioned for the first time in history by the Persian King of Kings Darius in the 6th century B.C., when on the occasion of his glorious victory he erected a very huge monument Bissoutun. On that monument are the names of the people he attacked and the details of his battles.
 
 According to myths and tradition mentioned by ancient historians, it is plausible that Phrygians were related to the Armenians, and that both were closely related to Hellenic tribes.
a

Edited by chicagogeorge - 10-Jun-2007 at 12:39
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 15:08
Originally posted by chicagogeorge


The first theory was from Herotodos, the Greek historian who lived and wrote his history in 300-270 B.C.
 
Herodotus lived  in the 5th century BC (484 425)
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  Quote chicagogeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 16:05
^^
Opps! I knew that. I guess my source made the error. I should have read over it more carefully.
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 02:26
One of the most intriguing sources comes from the Assyrian inscriptions.  In the first year of the Assyrian king Tiglathpileser I (c. 1114-1076 BC), he had to contend with an invasion of hordes known as the Mushki.  Later Assyrian sources aid us in identifying the Mushki as the Phrygians.  The Mushki had 50 years previously invaded and occupied the northwestern provinces of the Assyrian Empire and were now invading a province adjacent to the Assyrian homeland itself.  Tiglathpileser utterly defeated them and the remnants settled in northern Mesopotamia, which the later Macedonians knew as "Mygdones" which had apparent Phrygian or Mysian affinities (Strabo, Geography 11.14.2, 16.1.23). 
 
In the next year, Tiglathpileser had to contend with another horde, apparently following on the heals of the Mushki, known as the Urume.  These were likewise defeated and they settled in the mountainous area to the northwest of Mesopotamia.  Both later Urartian and Assyrian inscriptions refer to the land as either Urme or Arme, in which we may first have an allusion to the name "Armenian".  This land located in a district known as Shubria is consistent with the earliest known region of Armenian habitation, notably in western Armenia, the other parts of Armenia being inhabited by other major tribes such as the Alarodians (Urartians), Saspires, and Matienians, (Herodotus, Book 3.93 - 13th province; 3.94 - 18 province).
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  Quote chicagogeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 08:54
Some linguists accept an ``Armeno-Greek hypothesis,'' that Armenian and Greek are particularly close subfamilies, yet Armenian is Satem and Greek is Centum.

Gimbutas' theory involves successive waves of invasion from the Ukrainian steppes to the Balkans or Central Europe. This is exactly compatible with  the"Kurgan wave 1'' (ca 4300 BC) led to the splitoff of Hittite, ``Kurgan wave 2'' (ca 3600 BC) led to the splitoff of Greek, and ``Kurgan wave 3'' (ca 3000 BC) led to the final separation of the Satem subfamilies. This clearly locates the change from Centum to Satem in time and space: it occured in the Pit Grave (Yamnaya) culture of the Pontic-Caspian steppes during the middle of the 4th millenium BC.

In the Gimbutas theory the close affinity of Greek and Armenian is no surprise: they each migrated southwest from the Kurgan homeland in Scythia, but a few centuries apart, Greek just before and Armenian just after the K-->S sound change.

 


Edited by chicagogeorge - 11-Jun-2007 at 11:15
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  Quote chicagogeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 09:23
This was the professor that I was referring to in my earlier post on the Greek migrations at around 3200bc.
 
 
Colemans work (Cornell University) which supports the newer theories expressed about the first Greeks.

Quote:

An archaeological scenario for the Coming of the Greeks ca. 3200 B.C.

I here argue that the Indo-European language that eventually became Greek came to Greece with a group of people who arrived from the north at the beginning of the Early Bronze Age in the later fourth millennium B.C.[1] These proto-Greeks entered a landscape that had been largely depopulated for centuries before their arrival and they soon came to dominate most of the mainland of Greece (but not the Cycladic islands or Crete). Influenced by the Cycladic islanders, they eventually created the Early Helladic civilization of the third millennium B.C. The later Bronze Age population of mainland Greece was largely descended from that of the EBA and the Greek language of the Linear B texts of the Late Bronze Age gradually developed from the language or languages spoken then. The pre-Greek linguistic substrate in Greek (e.g., words with endings in -ssos and -nthos) may have entered Greek from the language spoken by the previous LN II inhabitants of the Aegean area and probably also by their EBA descendants in the Cyclades and Crete. The essay begins with a critique of the current theory that the proto-Greeks entered Greece at the end of the second phase of the Early Helladic period ca. 2400/2200 B.C. and concludes that it is less likely than it formerly seemed to be. This is followed by details of the scenario here advocated, which is supported by the differences in character between the EBA culture of the Greek mainland and that of the latest Neolithic culture and by the probable existence of a hiatus of occupation between the end of the Neolithic era and the beginning of the EBA. Correlations with the evidence for immigrations of Indo-European speakers to the Balkan countries to the north of Greece are then sketched and arguments briefly presented for an association of the pre-Greek linguistic substrate with the LN II inhabitants. The conclusions deal with some general questions related to the new scenario.


Edited by chicagogeorge - 11-Jun-2007 at 09:24
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2010 at 14:53

Come on.We all know that,they came from Adana.haven't you heard 300 adanali's ?


Adana MErkez Akilli olsun herkes.




Edited by adanali - 26-Jan-2010 at 14:58
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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2010 at 04:34
Originally posted by ihsan

Ah, Yurt is a Turkic word meaning "Homeland" but I think it was the Russians who adopted this word and started using it for the meaning of a nomadic tent. Similar to "Kurgan" which drives from Turkic Korugan meaning "Preserver" (used for forts).
Isn't that also related to the Mongol 'orda' - which meant 'camp' or 'army' - which gave rise to the English 'horde' and the language name 'Urdu' - which is a blend of Hindi and Persian? 
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