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Kuu-ukko
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Topic: Indo-European and Uralic families. Posted: 09-Dec-2004 at 09:50 |
Hello everyone! I have two questions conserning the titles language families:
Do you think these two are related? Why/why not?
I have been interested on the subject for some while now, and I would like some comments regarding it.
Thank you !
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Cywr
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Posted: 09-Dec-2004 at 11:58 |
There is a theoretical Nastrian (sp?) language super-family, thats puts
Indo-European, Uralic, and a few others together. Don't know much about
this though.
Its still kindof a new and iffy theory.
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Arrrgh!!"
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Guests
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Posted: 01-Feb-2005 at 22:16 |
*Nostratic, Cywr
It links Indo-European, Uralic, Altaic, Kartvelian, Dravidian and Afroasiatic.
Some versions also include Chuckchi-Kamchatkan, Eskimo-Aleut, Sumerian, and Gilyak
The whole thing is highly dubious, however.
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JasSum
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Posted: 02-Feb-2005 at 08:04 |
All people speak the same languge, until God got mad to the people of Babylon, and made them to speak deifferent language, and not to understand eachother.
So maybe this reveals that in past, people really spoked one language (if this is not true, than variuos languages means warius types of homo sapiens, so hitler would be right ...)
And than if with time people started to speak differently, than the bible is true, and it really happend ... maybe not in babylon, but it sure did happend at some point.
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Bosnjo
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Posted: 02-Feb-2005 at 08:50 |
Uralic = Turkish/Tartarian/Mongol
They could be related because the Uralic race is able to drink Milk like the Aryan, unlike the Han (Chinese) and other Eastern Asians can not drink Milk.
I read somewhere that a several thousands years old Mumy was found in NW-China where Uralics like Uigurs live, and the death body had read hairs.
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Aristoteles
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Posted: 02-Feb-2005 at 09:01 |
Even the "language families" theory is highly dubious by itself, never mind an "uber-language family" that ties most (if not all) of the known language families together.
Anthropological data, though, seem to imply that we all come from a common ancestor (yes, the one from Ethiopia) so, at a very, very, very distant point in time there was an universal "language" of sorts (maybe it was merely above snorting and "grrrr-ing" though) and then different groups of people found different ways to communicate with each other.
Easteners can't drink milk? Never heard of that... only milk or all dairy products? And what means "can't drink milk", they don't like it or can't digest it or something?
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Trying to educate the ignorant, leads only to frustration
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Bosnjo
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Posted: 02-Feb-2005 at 12:56 |
...Most Chinese adults do not drink milk because they can not fully digest it. The Chinese, and others who cannot digest milk sugar (lactose), do not have a lactase enzyme. All babies (including Chinese, of course) have the enzyme until they are about three years old; after which they gradually lose the ability to manufacture the enzyme...
http://www.quintron-usa.com/Genetics.htm
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Kalevipoeg
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Posted: 02-Feb-2005 at 13:27 |
Does Estonian belong to the Uralic language group or are Finno-Ugric languages completely different from those. There is a theory that Estonian ancestors came form the Urals so we might even have a linguistic relation to some people as far as Central Asia, would like to find some similar words between some of Estonian and Central Asian ones.
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There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...
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Bosnjo
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Posted: 02-Feb-2005 at 13:35 |
Yes, but if order in families and wich languages belongs to a family is still disputed. For example in other Maps was Estnian, Finanian and Hungarian belongs to the Mongol/Tartarian/Turkish languages.
http://media.maps101.com/SUB/WORLD_THEMATIC/worldlang.gif
Edited by Bosnjo
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Kalevipoeg
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Posted: 02-Feb-2005 at 16:09 |
"Yes, but if order in families and wich languages belongs to a family is still disputed. For example in other Maps was Estnian, Finanian and Hungarian belongs to the Mongol/Tartarian/Turkish languages."
Well when my ancestors arrived where we live today, they were similar looking to modern Mongols. Then they mixed with the next immigrants. It could be quite realistic that a few words could be similar to even modern Turkish or Mongol ones.
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There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...
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Mangudai
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Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 13:57 |
About estonian - it belongs to the finno-ugrian languagegroup of the Uralic languagefamily. The Uralic family only consists of two groups - the finnougrian and samoyed
The finnougrian group in turn composes subgroups - smi languages, Balto-Finnish languages (including Estonian and Finnish), Volgafinnish, Permian, and Ugrian languages (including hungarian)
The idea that the western finnougrians were mongoloid is a myth honed by german and scandinavian racists in the early 20th century. Sure many finnougrian people have features incommon with northern asians (including myself who have somewhat slant eyes and broad, high cheekbones) but there are no evidences of that they originated from Asia
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Teup
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Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 19:01 |
Originally posted by JasSum
All people speak the same languge, until God got mad to the people of Babylon, and made them to speak deifferent language, and not to understand eachother.
So maybe this reveals that in past, people really spoked one language (if this is not true, than variuos languages means warius types of homo sapiens, so hitler would be right ...) And than if with time people started to speak differently, than the bible is true, and it really happend ... maybe not in babylon, but it sure did happend at some point. |
Actually, I think it's the other way around. Having ALL humans speak the same languages requires a high level of organisation and could not stretch over like a whole continent, especially not in those times. And of course isolated groups could never come up with the same language! I'd say small groups of people that worked together (on hunting for instance) developed languages, and it wasn't until the time of the real 'civilizations' that things got standardized and larger groups of people spoke the same uniform language. Then, a part of one such group would've entered europe and broke up in different languages again as they settled in different places. I don't know much about the actual history on this, but i this would be a good logical explaination to me.
However, the ability to use language must have arisen somewhere first, have a main source (i don't think it would first appear in multiple places at once) so in that sense you'd be right, there could be a single ancestral language. However, this must be pretty far back, and the relationship between the branches must have become highly insignificant by now. It's now like relating a fly to an elephant - common ancestor influence must be zero percent by now.
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Alparslan
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Posted: 05-Feb-2005 at 02:16 |
Originally posted by Kalevipoeg
"Yes, but if order in families and wich languages belongs to a family is still disputed. For example in other Maps was Estnian, Finanian and Hungarian belongs to the Mongol/Tartarian/Turkish languages."
Well when my ancestors arrived where we live today, they were similar looking to modern Mongols. Then they mixed with the next immigrants. It could be quite realistic that a few words could be similar to even modern Turkish or Mongol ones.
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Every Central Asian do not look like Mongolian. They may speak same language group but this doesn't mean that they are racially the same people. Western Altaic language speakers who live in west such as Turks, ancient Bulgars, Azeris, Turks of Caucasia, Tartars, Bashkirts, Chuvashs, Cumans etc. and Uralic people have caucosoid features. They were much less mixed with Mongols while they were moving towards west. But they were not Mongols.
Speaking a same language group doesn't mean that both people are the same. If you think so it means that you are also claiming that Indians, Pakistanis, Persians are the same with Germans.
I wish I could be Mongol. But I am not and western Uralic-Altaic speakers are not so either.
Edited by Alparslan
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Kuu-ukko
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Posted: 05-Feb-2005 at 04:48 |
People, some of us are forgetting that belonging to the same racial stock doesn't mean that they are of the same linguistical stock.
On the Uralic-Altaic hyphothesis: It is somewhat questionable, although the Uralic and Altaic languages share a lot of common traits, for example agglutination (a lot of suffixes and almost no prefixes), vowel harmony (for example o and can't be in the same word) and the lack of grammatical gender (in German der/das/die). Even basic vocabulary is shared, proto-Uralic *keele proto-Altaic *khl. This theory however isn't so sure, because it is thought that even the three branches of Altaic are language families of their own.
To Brosnjo: That map does show the Uralic languages in a brown blotch (which in my opinion is very coarse). And its Turkic/Tungus/Mongol languages .
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Bosnjo
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Posted: 05-Feb-2005 at 16:00 |
The occurs in the Germanian Languages, but not in Slavian nor romanian or celtic, they could have it from the Altaic or so.
Yes I would say that same Values count more then the Race. Nearly all Races are mixed together, look at the history. Yes the Language of Finns and estonians is from Uralic or Mongolic but they have more Genetical and Cultural from Wikings/Germanians, then the Steppes peoble.
All Humans are Equal, but I prefer Aryan girls for me they have the pretiest Faces, and good Bodies, but West Africans have also not so bad bodies.
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JanusRook
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Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 12:46 |
This is the theory that makes the most sense for me for language beginnings, all humans have a speech "organ" in the brain that controls muscle movements and coordinates mouth and tongue movements to produce the sounds that make up a language. Now this "organ" was a mutation in early man so only a few people had it, these people for whatever reason were able to outdo their lesser mute brothers and all people can speak now. However we did not all learn how to speak at the same time, sure our ancestors out of africa could communicate but they couldn't talk for a few thousand years more. These independant language areas, which now constitute our language families more or less in some form, each grew into their own languages. What do you guys think?
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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
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Kuu-ukko
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Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 14:01 |
I agree. I think there is no other logical way to explain the great
diversity of linguistical grammars (Indo-European grammatical genders
etc.)
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Teup
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Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 14:44 |
Me too. That's what I was trying to say earlier on in my reply . I am however not sure on the 'different sources at the same time' part of it. Animal species didn't come first from different places either did they? Maybe there is something as a main source, but as I said it is so far back, that it is by now highly insignificant.
Edited by Teup
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kipchack
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Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 19:49 |
Some of people claims Finns, and Estons are central asia origined people who live north-east europea. They claim, Uralic language is an last affixed language like Turkish, Tatar..
As a Crimean Tatar origined person, i NEVER think Finns, Estons or Modern Hungarians are related Turks. Finns and Estons look like Skandinavians, and they usually have dolicocephal (long) skull-type. i think they are actually teutonic origined, maybe their language changed during Mogol raids. i also don't think Mogols are also Turkic origined cause they look like more chinese or south asians, and their language were changed old strong Turk Empires before Islam religion..
Turkic people, such as Kazaks, Uzbekhs, Azerbaijan people, Kirgiz, Turkmens and Tatars usually have brakicephal skull type.
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a kipchack never dies..
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Bosnjo
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Posted: 15-Feb-2005 at 20:15 |
I met several Hungarians, who looked like real Mongols.
@Finns, did you have a blue ass as you were babies or did you had blue eyes.
AFAIK Turks have blue asses and Aryans blue eyes.
Edited by Bosnjo
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I am heavely armed, entirely sick and extremly nationalistic.
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