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2 Leaders, 2 Tumens

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  Quote AyKurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 2 Leaders, 2 Tumens
    Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 09:39
The leader of the first Trk Empire was known as Tumen by Chinese sources, his proper name was Bumin.  He led the Trks against  their Juan Juan overlords and established the first Kk Trk Empire.  He died in 552CE.
 
Over 700 years earlier the Xiongnu under their Shany Tumen were becoming a powerful force.
Tumen Shany was killed by his son Modun and his soldiers and Modun became Shany in 209BCE.
 
Both these leaders were known by Chinese sources as Tumen.  We know from Trk sources that the Tumen of the Kk Trk Empire was Bumin.  Could it be possible that both these Tumens share the same name with the same meaning or is this just superficial similarities based on Chinese mispronunciations of two different names?
I would like to know the opinion of folks here.
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2006 at 10:33

I don't think the name of the Tumen Tengriqut of Hun empire is Bumin, same as the Gokturk leader. You may refer to another post where an Indian forumer mentioned that part of the people in Gujar (Huns) still remmber him as "Touman".

Howeveer, sometimes Chinese pronounciation can be misleading. As for Modun (or Mete), in Uyghur history we call him Batur Tengriqut. You know some Chinese characters can be read as differently. Interestingly, the name Baodun is very common among Uyghurs.

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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2006 at 11:40
why isn't it possible that they both were tumen. Mabey the chinese gave their own names to them tumen means smoke cloud in chinese so mabey they both were called smoke cloud. Is this possible?
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  Quote AyKurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2006 at 17:34
Originally posted by barbar


I don't think the name of the Tumen Tengriqut of Hun empire is Bumin, same as the Gokturk leader. You may refer to another post where an Indian forumer mentioned that part of the people in Gujar (Huns) still remmber him as "Touman".

Thanks for this info.
 
Howeveer, sometimes Chinese pronounciation can be misleading. As for Modun (or Mete), in Uyghur history we call him Batur Tengriqut.
I cant remember where i read it but i remember reading once that the proper reading of the old Chinese characters is actually Modu and not Modun, where Modun is a modern reading of the characters.
Modu is more like Batur than Modun.
 
So Shanyu Tumen is probably Touman/Tumen as corroborated by Gujar folk memory, Tumen Kagan is Bumin as stated in the Orkhon Inscriptions.  Seems about right. 
The information on Shanyu Modu is an added bonus thanks Big smile
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  Quote AyKurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2006 at 17:38
Originally posted by xi_tujue

why isn't it possible that they both were tumen. Mabey the chinese gave their own names to them tumen means smoke cloud in chinese so mabey they both were called smoke cloud. Is this possible?
No because in the Orkhon Inscriptions it gives Tumen Kagan's name as Bumin. 
Maybe Shanyu Tumen could derive from the Chinese, after all if there were interactions between the Xiong Nu and the Chinese then it is possible a Chinese name was picked up however im not too sure if this is common or unheard of.
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2006 at 06:18
Originally posted by xi_tujue

why isn't it possible that they both were tumen. Mabey the chinese gave their own names to them tumen means smoke cloud in chinese so mabey they both were called smoke cloud. Is this possible?


Smoke cloud? What is that? I didn't know this, Chinese say "Yanwu" for smoke fog. where did you hear this? It might be interesting to see which characters they used.

Actually, in modern Uyghur language we use "Tuman" for smoke fog. It has different pronounciation from "Tumen".

"Tumen" ("u" with two dots above) means ten thousand. It was possible Tumen Tenriqut first lead ten thousand people, and got this title. Tumen bashi (Leader of ten thousand) is common military unit in Turkic military.

    
    
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