Topic: Which is the strongest muslim country at Posted: 06-Oct-2006 at 12:16
Originally posted by Zagros
Iran's military capability is, for the most part, unknown. But I would take Hezbollah's performance against the IDF as a vague benchmark, since they use Iranian weapons (including anti-tank) as well as the fact that they go to Iran for training.
this is a fact.the iranians and hizbulloah and the hamas of palestine are die hard fighters.remember before the war israel said we are going to get back our soldoers but nothing happened.the willingness to fight with these troops is very high whereas turkey will not even think of angering ameica or israel.
and also ,our operation stopped agressions between greek fascists and Makarios's partizan's.That is way,that was a real peace operation for both side...
The lands of the of the West may be armored with walls of steel,
But I have borders guarded by the mighty chest of a believer...
2nd The landing in Cyprus failed the operation was successful because there was not real Greek responce
3nd In Korean war there were many countries not only Turkey .
4th That the Turkish Airforce is among the best in the world is your own conclusion because Turkish Air force never prove it that is among the best in the world.
2. Operation was succesful because there was not real greek responce? Are you really being honoust? Pls read my post about what happened in Cyprus.
3. Is it a reason for not seeing,that there were more countries, for not seeing the power of The Trkish Army?
If you want to learn what really happen in Cyprus i suggest to read
Mehmet Ali Birand and his book 30 sicak gun If you want we can also describe all the facts step by step to see when start the first greek response to see what exactly happen in the landing but we cannot because Cyprus issue is black list .We must ask license to do it.
The power of an army you can see it if he is alone in the battlefield not under the umbrella of Us army.
Pls dont copy paste propaganda articles nobody read these.
Look, you sayed something wrong about korean war, and i only gave you an example of the trued. I didnt say that only this shows the strongness of Trkish Army. There are many examples after ww2 which shows it. Exactly what you are doing is propaganda. Cyprus showed especially a very good example of the strongness of Trkish Army. You trying to deny this, and also trying to deny the fact of the massacre greek army and terrors made before Trkish Army interfere, and saying that the conquering of Trkish Army in Northern Cyprus is not a peaceful operation is also propaganda. Pls be more honoust.
Northern part of Cyprus is called illegal occupied....? Are you making jokes, or are you just a Trk hater? The Northern part of Cyprus is called:
Guys you are convinced for everything. In Cyprus in 1974 happen an ethnic cleansing do i have to remind you who else did ethnic cleansing .
You baptized it peace operation but apeace operation is protecting the human right of all the nations.If somebody don t agree with you become a Turk hater.
remind me anything you want. What did we baptized? Peace operation? Come on mate, you can do better than this. Go one or two pages earlier and you will find my post of what happened in Cyprus, i dont want to repeat things.
Only the Turkish state call it peace operation i would also call it if it would be protected the human rights of G/C.Instead of protection we had an ethnic cleansing .Probably you want to have a new definition for the word peace.
2nd The landing in Cyprus failed the operation was successful because there was not real Greek responce
3nd In Korean war there were many countries not only Turkey .
4th That the Turkish Airforce is among the best in the world is your own conclusion because Turkish Air force never prove it that is among the best in the world.
2. Operation was succesful because there was not real greek responce? Are you really being honoust? Pls read my post about what happened in Cyprus.
3. Is it a reason for not seeing,that there were more countries, for not seeing the power of The Trkish Army?
If you want to learn what really happen in Cyprus i suggest to read
Mehmet Ali Birand and his book 30 sicak gun If you want we can also describe all the facts step by step to see when start the first greek response to see what exactly happen in the landing but we cannot because Cyprus issue is black list .We must ask license to do it.
The power of an army you can see it if he is alone in the battlefield not under the umbrella of Us army.
Pls dont copy paste propaganda articles nobody read these.
Northern part of Cyprus is called illegal occupied....? Are you making jokes, or are you just a Trk hater? The Northern part of Cyprus is called:
Guys you are convinced for everything. In Cyprus in 1974 happen an ethnic cleansing do i have to remind you who else did ethnic cleansing .
You baptized it peace operation but apeace operation is protecting the human right of all the nations.If somebody don t agree with you become a Turk hater.
remind me anything you want. What did we baptized? Peace operation? Come on mate, you can do better than this. Go one or two pages earlier and you will find my post of what happened in Cyprus, i dont want to repeat things.
2nd The landing in Cyprus failed the operation was successful because there was not real Greek responce
3nd In Korean war there were many countries not only Turkey .
2. Operation was succesful because there was not real greek responce? Are you really being honoust? Pls read my post about what happened in Cyprus.
3. Is it a reason,that there were more countries, for not seeing the power of The Trkish Army?
Look at what this guy says in this article:
by Don Miller
The summer of 1996 found me for the first time in Turkey. My
destination was Edirne, a city near the Bulgarian border which served
as the capital of the Ottoman Empire until Christian Constantinople
fell to the Turks in 1453.Edirne is the site of the oldest continuing
athletic event in the world. Almost annually since 1640 hordes of
Turkey's finest athletes have gathered there for the Kirkpinar, the
world series of Turkish oil wrestling. Hardly any tourists attend the
tournament, and almost no Americans. Why did I go? Because of a book I
read in 1957.
My status as a college student, from 1950 to 1954, kept me deferred from
the draft thruout the Korean War, and I have always felt some shame that I
was spared when so many young men my age died in Korea. In 1957 I completed
graduate school, the year that Eugene Kinkead published his deeply
disturbing account of the mortality rate of American prisoners-of-war who
were incarcerated by the North Koreans.
The Russians, having developed the science of brain-washing, had taught it
to the Chinese, who passed it on to the North Koreans, who found that
American prisoners were ideal targets for psychological manipulation. Never
before - or since - were American soldiers shown to be so widely susceptible
to demoralization.
A study conducted by the U.S. Army Medical Corps after the war found that
one-third of American POWs were guilty to some degree of collaboration with
the enemy. In the three years of warfare, not a single one escaped from
captivity. Most alarming of all, out of 7,190 captives, the death rate was
38%, or 2,730. One out of three never came home. These statistics far
exceeded the rate for any other American war. Nine enlisted men and three
officers were later convicted by courts martial. The most notorious was a
Sgt. James Gallagher, who murdered three barracks-mates, helpless with
dysentery, by kicking them out into the snow to freeze in the dead of
winter.
The study revealed that neither physical torture nor lack of food or medical
care had caused the general collapse in morale. Once captured, many of our
men lost all sense of allegiance to their country or to one another. They
refused to obey their own officers, cursing and even striking them, buying
into their captors propaganda that capitalistic rank no longer existed. On
forced marches from one prison camp to another, able-bodied men would refuse
to lift the stretchers of the wounded. The strong regularly took food from
the weak, and the sick were ignored . . . or worse. Many prisoners simply
withdrew into a state of isolation and inactivity.
Our commissioned officers had been segregated out by the North Koreans, but
each compound still had senior non-coms who, had they established order,
would have prevented the tragedy. Instead, the men - chiefly the young -
were left free to become easy prey to their captors. Death came most often
from what Army psychiatrists simply termed "give-up-itis." First the
sufferer became despondent, later he lay down and covered his head with a
blanket, then he wanted ice water with his food, next only ice water, and if
noone managed to break thru, he was dead in three weeks.
The greatest number of North Korea's prisoners was, of course, American. Of
the twelve nations represented, however, the third most numerous were the
Turks, with 229. The U.S. Army study found them to have been just as
exemplary in prison as they were in battle. The Turks' secret weapons were
discipline, great pride in their brigade, and an unbroken chain of command.
The final official report contains this Turkish officer's account of his
prison experience:
"I told the Chinese commander of the camp that I was in charge of my group.
If he wanted anything done, he was to come to me, and I would see that it
was done. If he removed me, the responsibility would fall not on him but on
the man next below me, and after that on the man below him. And so on, down
thru the ranks, until there were only two privates left. Then the senior
private would be in charge. They could kill us, I told him, but they
couldn't make us do what we didn't want to do. Discipline was our
salvation, and we all knew it. If a Turk had questioned an order from his
superior to share his food or lift a [stretcher], the way I understand some
of your men did, he would literally have had his teeth knocked in. Not by
his superior, either, but by the Turk nearest to him. The Communists made
attempts to indoctrinate [us]. . .but they failed completely, and eventually
gave up."
The crowning consequence of this discipline was that, although half of the
229 were wounded when captured, not one died in prison. When a Turk got
sick, the rest nursed him to health. If he was ordered to the hospital, two
well Turks went along to minister to him hand and foot and to carry him back
to the compound when he was discharged. At mealtime two Turks were
dispatched to carry the food back, and it was divided equally down to the
last morsel. There was no hogging, no rule of dog eat dog, not ever.
Death by "give-up-itis" was impossible. While an American might curl up
alone at night and die in the bitter cold, the Turks all piled together in
one corner of their cell, and every hour the two on the outside would rotate
to the center of the pile. The Chinese guards actually grew to fear their
Turkish prisoners, as they watched the interminable wrestling matches which
kept them so tough - and, paradoxically, so loyal to one another.
As a consequence of this study President Eisenhower issued the now-famous
Uniform Code of Military Conduct, and the Korean experience, thank God, has
not repeated itself.
That was how, forty years ago, a book on the Korean War "hooked" me on
Turkey. My admiration was not then easy to admit, for I was a newly-minted
Anglican priest and these Turks were all misguided Moslems. I had
emerged from seminary equipped with my own fix on all the non-Christian
religions, and Moslems were fanatics who just wanted to kill everybody else.
Here I was, faced with evidence of Moslems who really lived the Golden Rule,
and of Christians whose self-absorption had produced despair and death. I
kept chewing on that paradox - and those stereotypes - until finally a
chance came to do some observation for myself.
Four times now I have visited Turkey, to see what kind of wrestlers the
Turks are and, more importantly, what kind of people they are. So impressed
was I by the Kirkpinar Festival, and the hundreds of athletes, officials and
dignitaries with whom I had my halting conversations, that I kept coming
back. These are guileless, friendly, physically awesome men who come from
every province of a big country just to wrestle, forty at a time, in a great
grassy field, barefoot and barechested, covered with olive oil, in 92-degree
summer heat. These fighters range in age from twelve to forty, and each
contest may last from a few minutes to an hour. I find it hard to imagine
many of our own wrestlers matching their stamina, or to be competing in such
a gruelling sport at the age of forty. The Turkish style with its dearth of
rules could not easily be introduced into our country, because the brotherly
trust which exists between the combatants is unknown in rule-rich American
sports. There are referees, but their involvement is minimal. Turks oiled
bodies are so difficult to grasp that, in seeking to secure leverage for a
throw, a wrestler is permitted to thrust his hand or his entire forearm down
into his opponent's leather trousers, something which would freak out any
Western athlete. Intentional fouls are almost non-existent. There is no such
thing as a draw, the match continuing until one wins and the other loses.
A most impressive aspect of the tournament is the participants almost
universal comradeliness. Opponents will kibitz and joke with one another
while waiting for their line to be sent onto the field. Before tying up for
this fight to the finish each pair engages in elaborate Islamic rituals of
respect for one another. If during the match one wrestler should get
something in his eye the struggle simply pauses, his opponent usually
fetches cloth and water to wash it away, then they face off, and the fight
is resumed. Once the match is decided they rise to embrace, touch
foreheads together and leave the field. A foreign observer must ask how much
these deeply-ingrained wrestling traditions contribute to the fact that
Turks historically stick together in tough situations, while we Americans
seem often inclined to "look out for Number One.
When the three-day tournament draws to a close, and the champions have been
cheered by a packed stadium, the President of Turkey crowns the Bash
Pehlivan of all Turkey, a national hero frequently honored by his home town
with a statue. The current Turkish champion, whom I am privileged to
consider a friend, is also a champion Sumo wrestler in Japan. Almost forty,
but in extraordinary shape, he confesses to a longing to take up American
football.
Fellow Americans, we have a lot to learn from the Turks and the way their
wrestlers treat one another even when they are fighting. We must go on
struggling to love and care for one another despite the immense racial,
ethnic and religious differences which characterize American culture. If we
fail, then the individualism of which we proudly boast will be our undoing
at the hand of some other power whose people have learned to stick together
for the common good. Jesus, as always, hit the mark when he said, "Greater
love hath no man, than that he lay down his life for his friends."
It is simply not enough that we be cajoled to celebrate our diversity,
which is no more than a glib piece of contemporary sloganeering. Americans
will either become genuine brothers, bound together by a compassion which
transcends mere tolerance, or this first great world experiment in democracy
is destined to fade and crumble.
Northern part of Cyprus is called illegal occupied....? Are you making jokes, or are you just a Trk hater? The Northern part of Cyprus is called:
Guys you are convinced for everything. In Cyprus in 1974 happen an ethnic cleansing do i have to remind you who else did ethnic cleansing .
You baptized it peace operation but apeace operation is protecting the human right of all the nations.If somebody don t agree with you become a Turk hater.
Ottomans they were never imperialistic? ANd why they wanted to conquer the Europe?
What EgeTrk meant, was the rights every ethnic groups had in The Osmanlı Empire.
Buldog i don't care from where you are. I never asked you. When i say prooves i can proove that there is 30.000.000 kuds in turkey and another 50.000.000 in Europe. Can you proove that they are not? there is no result in that debate. Secondly there is no reason to be hostile. The Greeks , Romans and Europeans have introduced a way of speaking with some rules and called it discussion. Well in that way of communication the discussions groups(members) they are not obliged to agree. If someone has dfferent opinion we are not insulting and alking bad to him. Now since you learned that rules I can start. First of all you are the one who is insulting, because you are giving comments which are not true. You are doing this purposely, thats the reason you get furious answers. I dont know how many kurds there are in Trkiye, and you dont either, so pls dont make comments on which you dont have information of.
First about the high moral of turkish soldiers i believe you see what happened in turkish airlines. Secondly a branch of rebels is a branch of rebels. See what Hezbolah suffered from Israel. If Turkey has the power of eliminated the rebels of PKK the government would have done that.
What has this incident have to do with Trkish soldairs, pls be honoust.
about the operation on pkk, i said earlier our government is wrong with this. I already said theyre motive is that they dont want to make a big deal of it, because the one thing pkk wants is attention. But i dont agree with this motive of the government. As you can see in the briefings of new General Yaşar Bykanıt, you can see they are against this motive and made it directly clear they are gonna attack the pkk in North-Irak. Trkish soldairs had been sent to North-Irak to operate and operated with arrival of new General Yaşar Bykanıt. Recently this also came in the media, if you had followed, you would have known. Because of this usa supported Trkiye in this subject, and started handlings to stop pkk-terrororganization. If recently Trkish soldairs didnt invade into North-Irak usa would go on with supporting pkk, which is a fact of usa, that they dont care about justice.
I suppose you have prooves for the Greeks train the PKK rebels! i guess not! And it is Republic of Cyprus. The nothern part of Cyprus is called illegal occupied nothern Cyprus internationally (99,99%) recognised and by UN. There are laws. FYI.
Anyway we are offtopic. The topic is the muslin countries power. And don't confuse that the strongest muslin country is not neccesary a world power.
Northern part of Cyprus is called illegal occupied....? Are you making jokes, or are you just a Trk hater? The Northern part of Cyprus is called:
Powerfullest Muslim country. Its a hard one but i would have to say its out of the three big boys have got to be Turkey, Iran and Pakistan (not in any particular order). These countries are also the inheritors of the three greatest Muslim empires of the past.
Turkey has a large population along with military service for all adult males. Also their airforce is among the best in the world.
Turkey has experiance as well not only is it the child of the Ottoman empire, but has proved its self in the Cyprus peace operation as well as in helping NATO in the Korean war.
1st In the collapsing period the military of Ottoman empire were in a very bad situation.
2nd The landing in Cyprus failed the operation was successful because there was not real Greek responce
3nd In Korean war there were many countries not only Turkey .
4th That the Turkish Airforce is among the best in the world is your own conclusion because Turkish Air force never prove it that is among the best in the world.
well, it is Turkey today that sells Fighters to Pakistan
Irans ground forces are very disciplined, I think they are a good opponent in this topic.
Pakistan does not buy fighters from Turkey - at least none of the advanced ones, and it has no need to buy any lower tech fighters anymore as it can produce medium tech JF-17s (I put them at Block C/D F-16s at least). Both are 4th generation fighters, so Pakistan has no needto pay for anything less.
Mortaza u need to go out to a library and take out any history book about Ottomans and u wont find anything negative told about'em, believe me, there is no need for going against this.
History is a farm. Nations are farmers. What they planted before will show what is going to grow tomorrow!
One down side of irans military is its aging air force. not counting its 30 some F-14 tomcats and new Mig 29's and that new jet they designed themselves i forget what its called. The rest of its air force jets are pretty old.
I agree with Osmanli that it is Iran Pakistan and Turkey. One thing i point out about iran is that there soldiers are probably the bravest or at least some of the bravest soldiers in the world. Ive seen footage of these guys on YouTube.com infantry men taking on tanks in the Iran Iraq war. I dont know what it is about the iranian spirit but it is extremely brave in battle.
Pakistan vs Turkey- Pakistan may win initial battles due to their missiles, being a nuclear power wont help much though. Since its range would not allow it to reach Turkey, even if they were neighbors it would only reach the eastern part of Turkey killing the majority of the Kurds
Pakistani missiles can reach the entire Middle East (not the West African part), all of India and pass into Indo-China, regardless of whether Pakistan is a neighbour or not. Ghaznavi missiles can reach into Turkey already, depending on where they're fired from in Pakistan, and they have satellite guidance that only probably the lastes anti-missile systems can stop. Tipping the warhead with a nuke isnt a problem.
Current ranges can be seen here.
The ranges of Ghaznavi missiles shown is 2000 km, which is an absolute minimum, the range in the last test was 2,500 km (naming might have used Shaheen II). The Ghaznavi 1200 mile would be for a heavy warhead fired from Central/Eastern Pakistan. A small Plutonium warhead fired from Western Pakistan can cover the entire Middle East, including at least into central Turkey, with satellite guided ballistic missile weaponry that not even PAC-2's can stop, and probably not PAC-3.
Shaheen III is in development at 4000 km range, and the Chinese have already given out radio-frequency devices to Pakistan that would cause the immobilizing of any enemy fast. Not to mention SD-10.
AIP subs can also launch the missiles. The nuke cruise missile is also capable of being launched from the air, but Turkey does have F-16 CCIC upgrades or will have soon. But then Pakistan will have J-10, which is an altogether heavier and more manoeverable plane than the F-16 due to its TVC system and its airframe is a generation ahead of the F-16 one. The range also favours J-10, as does its radar (which again does not matter since Pakistan is getting the Saab Airborne warning systems). To get an idea of just how good the J-10 is, why are F-16 Block 52's being given to Pakistan now? Pakistan is already getting its hands on weaponry as advanced or more advanced than Block 52 F-16s with the J-10.
You also underestimate the fighting ability of the Pakistani Army. Ask the Indian Army that fought Pakistan in '65 with a 7:1 manpower advantage.
Joined: 24-Nov-2004
Location: North Cyprus
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Posts: 740
Posted: 06-Oct-2006 at 05:34
Powerfullest Muslim country. Its a hard one but i would have to say its out of the three big boys have got to be Turkey, Iran and Pakistan (not in any particular order). These countries are also the inheritors of the three greatest Muslim empires of the past.
Turkey has a large population along with military service for all adult males. Also their airforce is among the best in the world.
Turkey has experiance as well not only is it the child of the Ottoman empire, but has proved its self in the Cyprus peace operation as well as in helping NATO in the Korean war.
Inner fighting with the PKK however, although in a fullscale war it they are unlikey to have much effect.
Iran has shown its dedicated population in the Iran-Iraq war. The Iranians are highly motivated. They have great missiles as well: Scud B, Scud C, CSS-B, Shahin 1/2, Shahab 3, Shahab 4, Fateh 110, Shahab 5, SS-400.
Internal problems: Secularists, potential Azeri problem
Pakistan
A country which has had many wars in its short period of existence. However it a has a large population, although with no military service may prove fatal. Pakistan is also the only Muslim nuclear power.
It has grand missiles too: Hatf 1, Ghauri, Hatf 2, Hatf 3 (M-II), Shaheen, Hatf 3, Hatf 4, Ghauri (Hatf 5), Shaheen 2, naval TBM.
China is also an ally of Pakistan.
Pakistan vs Turkey- Pakistan may win initial battles due to their missiles, being a nuclear power wont help much though. Since its range would not allow it to reach Turkey, even if they were neighbors it would only reach the eastern part of Turkey killing the majority of the Kurds. Turkey's military would most likly sweep in Pakistan the geography of the regian should not be a problem.
Pakistan vs Iran- Not sure on how this would go .
Iran vs Turkey- Kurds may join the side of Iran, but the Azeri Turks may in return help Turkey. Iran as powerful missiles, although again i thinking the Turkish army has the advantage.
Ottomans they were never imperialistic? ANd why they wanted to conquer the Europe?
Buldog i don't care from where you are. I never asked you. When i say prooves i can proove that there is 30.000.000 kuds in turkey and another 50.000.000 in Europe. Can you proove that they are not? there is no result in that debate. Secondly there is no reason to be hostile. The Greeks , Romans and Europeans have introduced a way of speaking with some rules and called it discussion. Well in that way of communication the discussions groups(members) they are not obliged to agree. If someone has dfferent opinion we are not insulting and alking bad to him. Now since you learned that rules I can start. First about the high moral of turkish soldiers i believe you see what happened in turkish airlines. Secondly a branch of rebels is a branch of rebels. See what Hezbolah suffered from Israel. If Turkey has the power of eliminated the rebels of PKK the government would have done that.
I suppose you have prooves for the Greeks train the PKK rebels! i guess not! And it is Republic of Cyprus. The nothern part of Cyprus is called illegal occupied nothern Cyprus internationally (99,99%) recognised and by UN. There are laws. FYI.
Anyway we are offtopic. The topic is the muslin countries power. And don't confuse that the strongest muslin country is not neccesary a world power.
And if Turkey was super power is going to be in The 1)security council
2)G8
3)EU
4)and now that the crisis in Iran is at his peak in the urgent meeting between USA, Germany, China and Russia, France Turkey would have been invited. But guess what... it didn't.
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