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Geography of Ancient Near East

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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Geography of Ancient Near East
    Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 03:54
Ancient egyptians spoke of themselves having come from the land of punt which acordin to them was very advaanced. Which place in Africa had an advanced civilzation.
 
Ummm, no.  This idea of "advanced civilization" is purely an interpretation.  As for Punt being the origin of the ancient Egyptians, I have not found a text which stated such.  If this idea was glossed from the fact that Punt was associated with the land-name Ta-Netjer "land of the god", then this simply is not enough to even say that the Egyptians came from there.
 
Which place would be able to export spices & cloth, sweet timberwood amongst others.
 
All the products given to the Egyptians, can be found in Africa, and so there is no necessity in trying to find these things anywhere else.
 
Yes, thats it. They traded by sea.
 
They also traded by land. 
 
The Egyptian name for egypt was Khem,....
 
The Egyptian name for Egypt was Kemet, meaning "black land" because the fertile soil was dark, as opposed to Deshret, the "red land", the desert soil.
 
....their reigning diety was Khem,.....
 
No.  As a matter of fact, the Egyptians had many "reigning deities, depending on which city was the king's capital.  I've looked up the name "Khem" and there is no Egyptian deity by that name.  There is one called Khnum, but he was never a "reigning deity". 
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 05:17
The egyptian name was not kemet, it was Khem.
If Africa provided all these things why did the Europeans go to india & asia for that ? Even now these products are not there in Africa.
Khem was there god of gods.

I didnt say Punt was the origin of civimlization.
I said Punt was india. read the description of Punt & you will find. Origin of civilzation certainly has to be at a place popular to europeans.


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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 05:18
Or try a simple google for Khem.

Edited by Vivek Sharma - 16-Sep-2006 at 05:18
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 13:22
Well, maybe the Europeans went to India because they hadn't heard of southern Africa?

Khem was there god of gods

If the Egyptians had a god of gods, it would be Amon, Ra or Aton, depending on the pharaoh.

And worry not, I'll Googl it but Google hasn't always got the best answers to all questions.


Check this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemet


Edited by rider - 16-Sep-2006 at 13:27
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 13:25
And there have been many explorers who have gone to Punt by land, this means clearly that India is out of contest.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2006 at 11:04
Originally posted by Sharrukin

...
Yes, the Phoenicians.  According to the Bible, Solomon employed the Phoenicians to built for him "Tarshish ships" from a port at Elath on the southern limit of Edom to make the trip around Africa.
 
 
The quote to the "Tarshish ships" is interesting as well, because it point to Tartesos or Tarsis. The ancient civilization of Spain, located somewhere in the Guadalquivir, and which has contact with the phoenicians and hebrews of those times.
 
Pinguin


Edited by pinguin - 01-Oct-2006 at 11:06
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2006 at 11:38
It should be more accurate to say that the Phoenicians only colonized parts of the coast of northern Africa (of which there is much archaeological evidence)
 
I don't know where you have got your surfaces from, but it is firmly known that the Phonecians settled in Italy, Sicily and the Iberian Penninsula as well as north africa. Read Herodotus and other Greek historians- they will confirm my claims.
 
...I thought that Amon was the egyptian king of the gods, also, wasn't the temple of Amon at Karnak similar in comparision to the Parthanon or Delphic Oracle? One of, if not the major religious site in egypt. 
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 05:43
Khem in egyptian means black, the called ther country khem country, the black land, at various times Khem was also their God.

The meaning of Khem is the same in India, since mythological times till date. The word Khem is also a common name in India since ancient times, till date.

Any coincidences or conclusions    ???????
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 09:14
Vivek, even Wikipedia states that both words Khem and Khemet are for Egypt so you both are correct. (Although, it says that Khem is more for the soil of Egypt or smthg like that).
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 07:01
Rider, this thread of mine in archeology about Egyptian evidence in Australia may be of interest to you concerning this topic: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=15517
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 02:01
Originally posted by rider

Vivek, even Wikipedia states that both words Khem and Khemet are for Egypt so you both are correct. (Although, it says that Khem is more for the soil of Egypt or smthg like that).


And more so, Khem has many meanings in India all pointing to the same thing. Khem means black colour
Khem means the hidden
Khem means the dark
Khem means the silent difference / unnoticeable difference.

Please not that the darkness, blackness represented by the word Khem is by no means simple black. It is lustrous, shining black.

The name also represents some of our Gods. (Most of our Gods are black as opposed to the theory of Aryan Migration & most of them are said to reside in Tibet, central Asia again opposed to the above theory.)

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 09:29
Does Hindi have the Kh sound? Egyptian did. Do you pronounce that word like "Kem"?
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  Quote Apo-Init Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 14:02
Ermm  All political issues aside, Kemet (Egypt) was an African civilization and its peoples were African. The whole notion of "Near East" is a modern geo-political construct (with extra emphasis on political) that was invented by Europeans, but I won't even get into that right now.
 
Now, what's also clear is that Punt is also in Africa as all the evidence, despite what some scholars in the past tried to claim, all point to an African area. Not the Levant, not Arabia, and certainly not India, but Africa.  Egyptian sources point to two main ways of reaching Punt--- either by the Red Sea or by land.  Judging from the depictions from Hatshepsut's tomb of the landscape, fauna, and especially people, as well as recently discovered texts of an invasion by Kush*tes who had the Puntites as their allies. the Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor, and not to mention the myrrh plants, it is likely that Punt lay somewhere in the conjuctive area of southeastern Sudan, Ethiopia, and Eritrea.
 
As for the term Kemet, that word did not make any references to the soil or earth but to the country or nation itself which as you can see is personified in the feminine (a vowel follwed by 't' in the end).  Just one of the countless parallels Egyptian culture had with many other African cultures is the symbolism with the color black.  In contradiction to the many of culture of Western Asia and Europe, the color black or 'kem' symbolize many positive aspects, the most important of which was re-birth and fertility.  Thus, although Kem was not the name of any one god it was an epithet used for various gods such as Asar (Osiris) was also called Kem Wer (Great Black) as well as Aset (Isis) and various other significant deities.  A similarity can be seen with other Afrasian speaking groups like the Oromo in Ethiopia who also call their deity Waaka black.
 
Now getting back to Punt, there is a likelyhood that there was indeed a complex culture or civilization lying far to the south of the Nile Valley somewhere in the Horn as historians and archeaologists have merely scratched the surface of the history of that region of Africa. 


Edited by Apo-Init - 21-Jan-2007 at 14:39
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2007 at 07:08
Originally posted by rider

The Sumerians, being great in Astronomy and Astrology, did they excess in knowing the lands too? Did they make maps or plans of their empires? Did they chart the routes of the Eufrates and the Tigris?


They had maps, but understand that maps were not really used for navigational purposes so much as they were used to survey smaller tracts of land (such as a city and its fields) for purposes of land allocation or large scale engineering projects. Here is an example, a fragment of a map detailing the city of Nippur:

http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/AncientWebPages/101.html

As you can see this is a fairly sophisticated district map or city blueprint and they seem to have developed the technology for sophisticated depictions of this sort quite early, but they didn't have the technology - or the need - to accurately depict very large tracts of land, such as the entire course of the Tigris or Euphrates. The largest geographical area depicting in any Sumerian maps yet uncovered consists of a river valley containing a single town, and it is only a basic sketch:

http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/AncientWebPages/100D.html

You can see a list of some of the surviving ancient maps from Sumeria here:

http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/AncientWebPages/AncientL.html

Without positional devices like the compass and sextant, it was not possible to create maps that were accurate enough to be used for reliable navigation. There are no maps of any large scale tracts of land dating from any period prior to Alexander.

Even these early maps weren't accurate enough to be of real use in overland travel. They were simply used to get a general idea of where things were in relation to one another. Navigation was a matter of using scouts and guides who had a knowledge of the lay of the land, and by using landmarks, which were often constructed for the purpose.

Edited by edgewaters - 28-Jun-2007 at 07:21
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  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 00:05
Originally posted by Apo-Init

Ermm  All political issues aside, Kemet (Egypt) was an African civilization and its peoples were African. The whole notion of "Near East" is a modern geo-political construct (with extra emphasis on political) that was invented by Europeans, but I won't even get into that right now.
 
Now, what's also clear is that Punt is also in Africa as all the evidence, despite what some scholars in the past tried to claim, all point to an African area. Not the Levant, not Arabia, and certainly not India, but Africa.  Egyptian sources point to two main ways of reaching Punt--- either by the Red Sea or by land.  Judging from the depictions from Hatshepsut's tomb of the landscape, fauna, and especially people, as well as recently discovered texts of an invasion by Kush*tes who had the Puntites as their allies. the Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor, and not to mention the myrrh plants, it is likely that Punt lay somewhere in the conjuctive area of southeastern Sudan, Ethiopia, and Eritrea.
 
As for the term Kemet, that word did not make any references to the soil or earth but to the country or nation itself which as you can see is personified in the feminine (a vowel follwed by 't' in the end).  Just one of the countless parallels Egyptian culture had with many other African cultures is the symbolism with the color black.  In contradiction to the many of culture of Western Asia and Europe, the color black or 'kem' symbolize many positive aspects, the most important of which was re-birth and fertility.  Thus, although Kem was not the name of any one god it was an epithet used for various gods such as Asar (Osiris) was also called Kem Wer (Great Black) as well as Aset (Isis) and various other significant deities.  A similarity can be seen with other Afrasian speaking groups like the Oromo in Ethiopia who also call their deity Waaka black.
 
Now getting back to Punt, there is a likelyhood that there was indeed a complex culture or civilization lying far to the south of the Nile Valley somewhere in the Horn as historians and archeaologists have merely scratched the surface of the history of that region of Africa. 
 
Incorrect. The term Kemet or 'Kmt' is almost certain to refer to the land rather then the color of skin like Afrocentrists are willing to believe. As for the term 'Near East' was a term used for the nation of Israel, Lebanon, Iraq, Syria, and Egypt even in ancient times later called 'Middle East' by Europeans. Today this encompasses Turkey, Iran, and the rest of North Africa.
 
Egyptians did not consider themselves Sub-Saharans but had close contact with them. They taught them many things in terms of warfare and civilization.
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  Quote Rakasnumberone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2007 at 02:36
Originally posted by andrew

Originally posted by Apo-Init

Ermm All political issues aside, Kemet (Egypt) was an African civilization and its peoples were African. The whole notion of "Near East" is a modern geo-political construct (with extra emphasis on political) that was invented by Europeans, but I won't even get into that right now.

Now, what's also clear is that Punt is also in Africa as all the evidence, despite what some scholars in the past tried to claim, all point to an African area. Not the Levant, not Arabia, and certainly not India, but Africa. Egyptian sources point to two main ways of reaching Punt--- either by the Red Sea or by land. Judging from the depictions from Hatshepsut's tomb of the landscape, fauna, and especially people,as well as recently discovered texts of an invasion by Kush*tes who had the Puntites as their allies. the Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor, and not to mention the myrrh plants, it is likely that Punt lay somewhere in the conjuctive area of southeastern Sudan, Ethiopia, and Eritrea.


As for the term Kemet, that word did not make any references to the soil or earth but to the country or nation itself which as you can see is personified in the feminine (a vowel follwed by 't' in the end).Just one ofthe countlessparallels Egyptian culture had with many other African cultures is the symbolism with the color black. In contradiction to the many of culture of Western Asia and Europe, the color black or 'kem' symbolize many positive aspects, the most important of which was re-birth and fertility. Thus, although Kem was not the name of any one god it was an epithet used for various gods such as Asar (Osiris) was also called Kem Wer (Great Black) as well as Aset (Isis) and various other significant deities. A similarity can be seen with other Afrasian speaking groups like the Oromo in Ethiopia who also call their deity Waaka black.


Now getting back to Punt, there is a likelyhood that there was indeeda complex culture or civilization lying far to the south of the Nile Valley somewhere in the Horn as historians and archeaologists have merely scratched the surface of the history of that region of Africa.


Incorrect. The term Kemet or 'Kmt' is almost certain to refer to the land rather then the color of skin like Afrocentrists are willing to believe. As for the term 'Near East' was a term used for the nation of Israel, Lebanon, Iraq, Syria, and Egypt even in ancient times later called 'Middle East' by Europeans. Today this encompasses Turkey, Iran, and the rest of North Africa.


Egyptians did not consider themselves Sub-Saharans but had close contact with them. They taught them many things in terms of warfare and civilization.


Boy andrew, I hope you don't start seeing me as one big pain in the A**, but you do have a hadit of stumbling onto good topics and asking good questions, so please indulge me.

Okay, I agree with you that the term kmt means black land. Having been to Egypt and seeing the soil, this makes sense to me. However, I am not an expert, or even a novice of the ancient language, so I would like to hear more about it in greater detail as pertains to this word.

With regards to Near East. This was not a term that was used in Antiquity at all. The term "East" was used however to refere to the Levant and Anatolia. This is not a term however that those people used to describe themselves. Remember, this term is a matter of perspective, "East in relation to whom? "Near East" in relation to where? By the way, Algeria, Tunisia, and Morocco are not considered the Middle East but North Africa. This is why when speaking of that entire region people will say North Africa and the Middle East.

With regards to Egypt's place in Africa. No they didn't see themselves as Sub-Saharan Africans. They didn't see themselves as being North Africans either. For that matter, Sub-Saharan Africans didn't see themselves as Sub-Saharan Africans, and no one thought of themselves as AFRICANS at all. The concept had not been invented yet. Part of the reason is no one had any idea just how large the land mass was, or even what shape it had because nop one had circumnavigated it and maped it out.

People identified based on their nationality, their region, clan or familial affiliations, not color, not geographical location. The Egytpians were a native East African people and their culture was native to the continent having originated from prehistory in Upper Egypt and the areas we now call Sudan. They also were influenced by the Saharan culture which stretched from Maili in the West to the boarders of Egypt and Sudan. They did absorb people from neighboring areas to the north east and east as well as Libya to the west, but the culture itself was African.

Egypt was techologically more advanced in terms of architecture, but their influence in the rest of the continent was fairly limited to its Nile valley neighbors. There is no evidence that they influenced other peoples. It should also be noted that to say the Egyptians brought these people civilization, is a gross over simplification. These people already civilization. They did receive some knowledge perhaps in architecture and other things but it was an addition to what was already there.
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  Quote Rakasnumberone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2007 at 03:03
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma


Originally posted by rider

Vivek, even Wikipedia states that both words Khem and Khemet are for Egypt so you both are correct. (Although, it says that Khem is more for the soil of Egypt or smthg like that).
And more so, Khem has many meanings in India all pointing to the same thing. Khem means black colourKhem means the hiddenKhem means the darkKhem means the silent difference / unnoticeable difference.Please not that the darkness, blackness represented by the word Khem is by no means simple black. It is lustrous, shining black. The name also represents some of our Gods. (Most of our Gods are black as opposed to the theory of Aryan Migration & most of them are said to reside in Tibet, central Asia again opposed to the above theory.)


With regards to Punt, it was not in India and there is not academic evidence to support such a claim. If you do have soeme, I would like to see it.
However, having been to Hatshepsut's morturary temple in dehir el Bahary and seeing the depictions of Punt myself I conclude it was an African region. Besides the pact that the people are depicted as being similar to the Egyptians physically, they also wore their hair in the same style and had long beards identical to those we see in Egyptian iconography. The deciding factor thought is that in addition to plants and spices, animals were also brought back. The animals shown, like giraffes, and hippos are not native to India at all, but to East Africa.
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  Quote Surmount Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2007 at 03:26
I know this has nothing to do with the topic but how do people get a quote under there posts.
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  Quote omshanti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2007 at 06:13
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

The Egytpians were a native East African people
Perhaps they were a native east NORTH African peoples who closely resembled the west Asian populations rather than the Sub-Saharan-East-Africans. Or perhaps in the south the native peoples resembled the Sub-Saharan-East-Africans, and in the north the native peoples resembled the West Asians (regardless of the ''later foreign admixtures'').    
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

They did absorb people from neighboring areas to the north east and east as well as Libya to the west, but the culture itself was African.
I am sure that the natives absorbed many peoples from the south too, and that the East-African Sub-Saharan element should also be counted as an element that was absorbed in by the natives, rather than being counted as the native. And yes the culture was obviously African, but perhaps not ''African'' as in which only associated with a type of physical characteristics that you define as the ''African physical type''. Or even if the culture was initially ''African'' originating near Sudan, it does not mean that all the native peoples of the land of Egypt to the north of it were ''African physical types''. A culture can easily spread to different looking peoples who develop it and add to it in their own ways. Also, The Libyans were native to Africa , therefore were Africans too.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

   they also wore their hair in the same style and had long beards identical to those we see in Egyptian iconography.   
As far as I know, the hair style and the long beards you are talking about became fashionable in ancient Egypt only from a certain point of time and were not something that the Egyptians had from the beginning, meaning that it was adopted and made fashionable from contacts with foreign peoples.

Rakasnumberone, from reading your posts in all the Egypt related threads, I get the impression that you are just saying that the original ancient Egyptians looked (or started off looking) the same as the peoples of Sub-Saharan-east-African countries such as Ethiopia, Sudan,..etc, untill ''foreigners'' came in and lightened their skin, made them look more Mediterranean or West Asian or European or whatever you call it... (since people don't like the word Caucasoid here I really don't know how to explain the physical characteristic, any way , you know what I mean).
Therefore you are saying that Sub-Saharan-east- African peoples were the natives of the land of Egypt, and all the other people that were not Sub-Saharan-east-African were ''foreigners'' who came in later.

I don't agree with this view.

After that locked up Egyptian thread, I am probably opening a can of worms here. Any way, sorry for being off-topic. Please go back (if you can) to the topic of the thread about the geography of the ancient near east.


Originally posted by Zagros

But I will add that the Assyrian Empire was very real! It is said that Tehran was founded by them, the name apparently derived from haven or sanctuary.
This is really interesting. I always thought that Tehran was quite new compared to other cities in Iran. I should definitely let our Assyrian neighbour in Tehran know about this.





Edited by omshanti - 26-Aug-2007 at 10:40
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  Quote Rakasnumberone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2007 at 11:26
Originally posted by Surmount


   I know this has nothing to do with the topic but how do people get a quote under there posts.


Hit the quote button in the upper right hand corner. Or you could cut and paste. put open bracket, the word quote, equal sign, then the person's name, closed bracket. At the end of their quote open bracket, slash QUOTE, closed bracket
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