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Geography of the Imperial Age

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  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Geography of the Imperial Age
    Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 17:47
Yes of course, one of the greatest was the expedition of Sebastin Vizcano to North Amrica in 1602. The galleon of Manila come back from Orient directly from more or less Japan to north California in a voyage of 6 months (7-9 to Acapulco) So because the crews and the own ship need to rest and provisions, the viceroy of New Spain sent an expedition with the only purpose of explore the pacific coast of actual USA for help to the galleons. In previous years the spanish tried to explore there with the expeditios of Corts in Baja California and Cabrillo in 1542; then because the galleon of Manila saw this coast and they couldn't approach, Vizcano went there.

Vizcano went to California with cartographers, landing there and fighting with natives, they went until the actual state of Oregn and maped the main points of the californian coast. Unfortunatelly, the traders of the Manila galleon don't want use his maps and recommendations, because they didn't want that the crew lost any time before landing in Acapulco Unhappy. There are other examples on the caribean sea but i havn't details.

In the dutch side, you have to the own Tasman.

Be careful, we are talking when the trade routes was more or less stablished, but don't forget that at the beginning the same ship that was exploring was a trade ship, so you have the portuguese in actual Indonesia searching the spice's islands and at the same time trading.



About "Terra Australis", counting the expeditions of Tasman you must consider too the less known, but not less wonderful, spanish (i know, again the spanish expeditions Dead, sorry) expeditions of Mendaa, Fernndez de Quirs and Torres (these last two portuguese under spanish service), with the only purpose of discover the southern continent, discovering a lot of pacific islands that is

lvaro de Mendaa, 1567-1569
lvaro de Mendaa and Fernndez de Quirs, 1595-1596
Luis Vez de Torres and Fernndez de Quirs, 1605-1607

http://gutenberg.net.au/pages/torres.html


I forget it, Tasman maped the NW coast of Australia Wink




Edited by Ikki - 13-Sep-2006 at 12:11
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 02:53
No problem, give us all the information you can about Spanish explorations. It won't hurt and atleast I read it with enthusiasm.

Thanks, can you also talk about the Spanish explorations when the routes were not yet known?
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  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 18:00
Hi, i'm here again.

Thanks, can you also talk about the Spanish explorations when the routes were not yet known?


Yes of course. In fact, the more famous voyages of the XV-XVI centuries was exploring new routes as Coln, Bartolom Das and Vasco da Gama. Here we have three points: the place from where you begin the travel and finally the place where you want arrive; in the middle how you could go from one point to another, that is the Winds. The entire age of explorations, the nature of the voyages are conditionated by Eolus, in the northern hemisphere the winds (and sea streams) turn following the clock, that is for example from western Europe along the coast of North frica crossing the ocean between Canary Islands and Cape Verde to the Caribbean sea, from here from the Mxico Gulf to New England and from here to Western Europe again; in the southern ocean contrary the wind and sea streams turn counter the clock from South frica to Guinea Gulf, from here to north Brasil then go down to Argentia and from here again to South frica. This is equal for the others oceans with exceptions: for example the navigation in the Indic oceans are conditionated by the Monsons and there the Bengal Gulf and the Arabic sea had winds-sea streams turning with the clock, contrary to the entire Indic ocean.

Coln knew about the navigation's conditions on the eastern Atlantic ocean and knew exactly from where he must take the winds for go to the west. Curiously, and probably because he was a good sailor (althought a crazy man) he could take at the first attempt the route for come back to Europe, althought the best route for go to Amrica (followed by the treasure fleets in the XVI century) was lightly to the south of his first voyage route, in the middle of Canary Islands and Cape Verde to Lesser Antilles, and not from Canary islands direct to Cuba, and not from Cape Verde to Trinidad like in his third voyage.

Contrary, the spanish in the Pacific had a lot of problems triying to stablish a route across the Pacific ocean, from Amrica to Phillipines and spice's islands, from here to Amrica again. No problem with the first point, going from Amrica to Asia, but at the moment that they was there was impossible for 40 years take a good way for come back, all the expeditions failed to take the route because the complicated system of islands, winds and sea in actual Indonesia and Phillipines: many of they sunk there as the expedition of Villalobos in the 40's,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruy_L%C3%B3pez_de_Villalobos

many more must came back to... Europe (this the case of the expedition of Magellan and Elcano), a few tryed to go counter  the wind (succesfully, but finished the travel totally tired if i remember well) and finally in the 60's of the XVI century Urdaneta stablished a good route following the Kuro Shivo sea stream and winds: he went to north until Japan, then a few milles north of Hawaii across the Pacific ocean to western coast of USA and from there to Acapulco.

This is the way that the spanish could to stablish the routes that they followed along three centuries.

Tomorrow: the portugueses.

Edited. I put a few more information.


Edited by Ikki - 24-Sep-2006 at 11:17
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  Quote pinghui Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2007 at 05:55
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  Quote kafkas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2008 at 03:54
Too many posts trying to claim Piri Reis' work as their nation's LOL
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2008 at 03:41

I don't know why some try so hard to make Piri Reis seem as insignificant as possible without ever reading anything he wrote or studying his works in any detail.

1. - In Piri Reis book, Kitab-i Bahriye we are told that a "world map" was drawn, the American map is only one section.
 
2. - His maps are some of the most accurate drawn, which still amaze those that study them today such as recent Russian studies.
 
3. - He drew the first known map of Antartica.
 
 
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2009 at 11:05
A large part of what we think we know about the Peri Reis charts or portolans, was inspired by Dr. Charles Hopgood's book, entitled "Maps of Ancient Sea-Kings", or something to that effect. You must be aware that just because something receives a date, like the date of the Piri Reis map, purporting to show the coast line of S. American and the hidden shore-line of Antartica, can well be either fakes or mis-dated by centuries. Whilst Hopgood makes a claim that the Antartic coast line shown in the chart closely matches that of moder geodetic surveys of the coast line hidden by ice, etc., is up to scholarly debate, but I would really suggest that the similarities are only vaguely alike or a product of mere chance!
You must realize that almost all "originals" of any document are not available now nor have most of them been available for many centuries, what we mostly have today are copies of copies, etc.! Along with claims, after claims, etc. that cannot be proven!

But, the Hopgood book is a good read, nontheless!
Note, he has also written a good deal, I hear, about the unfolding time called mostly "12-12-2012", which some nuts proport to be the end of the world!
Just as there might exist a "bit of fact" within fables, so there is sometimes likely to exist a bit of "fact" within Science Fiction or fiction in general.
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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  Quote pedrocalcoen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2012 at 10:09

Well the portuguese discoveries were much older and began in the first half of XV… Portuguese explorers cross at leat half of the north Atlantic and went to North America, some names Corte Real family (João Vaz- this one before Colombus?, Gaspar e Miguel), Labrador… Corte Real explorers seek for themselves north Canada (Terra Nova). Others were supported by Prince Henry the Navigator: Gonçalo Velho went to Azores; Bartolomeu Perestrelo and Tristão Vaz Teixeira… Many other began to navigate to the south.

Gil Eanes was the first to cross a legendagy border: Bojador. Prince Henry sent for almost 15 years expeditions but no one dare to cross that boundary. But Eanes succeed and in the years after many other push the limit south and south: Nuno Tristão, Dinis Dias but also some Italians under the service of Prince Henry: António Noli, Cadamosto…

Prince Henry, sometimes with the support of Prince Peter, offer a prize to the navigator that went more south in each year… When they died the new king D Afonso V just want to make holy war and rent the business of the discoveries to Fernão Gomes that put the following navigators in service: João de Santarém, Pedro Escobar, Lopo Gonçalves, Fernão do Pó and Pedro de Sintra.

Then the king D João II puts a new effort to the explorations: he sends Diogo Cão that reaches Angola and then Bartolomeu Dias cross Good Hope Cape. At the same time Pero da Covilhã went to Egypt and then to the East Coast of Africa where he was capture but he could send informations to Portugal… the voyage of Vasco da Gama was carefully planned…



Edited by pedrocalcoen - 14-Apr-2012 at 10:31
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  Quote pedrocalcoen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2012 at 10:43

What was new in the Vasco da Gama expedition? I mean as a nautical and epic achievement: the way he went to the middle of south atlantic and discover the system of wind in that area. A large turn to gain good wind and in the retourning more direct in south and stop in Azores… It was the voyage more long without visit land –the first voyage with sailors that began to suffer from scurvy. The expeditions of Cão and Dias were always by the coast. This rout was called by the Portuguese a volta do mar (something like retourning of the sea). In the next expeditions was discover Brasil (and then explore) and south atlantic islands like Tristão da Cunha (name of a navigator) and Santa Helena. As you see this was a planned effort that includes ways to planned the navigation in the southern skies, as Camões said “we also discover new skies”

Cabral was sent after Gama but his fleet lost from each other… in this voyage Diogo Dias brother of Bartolomeu Dias (that died in this expedition) land in Madagascar. many other islands and places were then reach by the Portuguese: Ceylan by D Lourenço de Almeida; Sequeira in Malaca; otherers to Indonesian island – Portugal settled in Timor in XVI. Then south China – Macau was a free city in XVI almost an independent one. And then portuguese were the first Europeans to arrive Japan. Fernão Mendes Pinto wrote a large book about is adventures in that areas. In the XVI many Portuguese run away from official rules and began to explore by themselves, sometimes they became rulers of local cities, explore Tibet and other areas in the interior (for instance Bento de Góis). Brazilian coast was then explore by Duarte Pacheco Pereira, Estevão de Sá, Dias de Soli (an Italian man) and Vespucio (under the orders of Spanish and Portuguese kings).

I hope I am not being boring. In next posts I´ll talk about Portuguese explorers in the service of Spain and about Portuguese cartography in the XV and beginning of XVI.

Best regards


Edited by pedrocalcoen - 14-Apr-2012 at 10:47
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