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Yom Kippur War, What If

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J.M.Finegold View Drop Down
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  Quote J.M.Finegold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Yom Kippur War, What If
    Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 17:40
I haven't seen this question up before, anywhere, so might as well ask!  After the near debacle of the first two weeks of the Yom Kippur War, where Soviet SA-2s under Egyptian use managed to clear the IAF from the skies [the IAF could not preform its usual role of flying artiller, given the heavy concentration of surface to air missiles], the Israelis were able to stop a later Egyptian offensive and turn the odds around and cross the Suez Canal.  During the final days of the war the Israelis were able to sorround the Egyptian 3rd Army [IIRC] and position itself behind the 2nd Army, leaving a small corridor to the 3rd Army to keep it fed so that it would not fall [the United States did not want to totally destroy the Egyptian Army, knowing that Egypt was slowly moving out of Soviet zone of influence and into the United State's]. 

What do you think would have happened had Israel refused the UN's request for the humanitarian corridor, and instead totally trapped the 3rd Army on the other side of the Suez canal, and continued to tear up the rear of the 2nd Army, thus depriving the Egyptians of over 350,000 of their troops?


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  Quote The Gypo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 23:56
Any sort of compromise on Egypt's part would not have occured at a later date if the Israeli force had not followed UN requests...
 
The 1973 war was one where the Egyptians were immensely angry and disjointed due to the 1967 loss...As such, a further disregard of UN requests by Israel would have fuelled further patriotism and extreme measures by the Egyptian force.
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  Quote J.M.Finegold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 09:59
What could have they done without their two largest and most experienced armies?  I don't think Israel had plans to actually occupy anything West of the Suez Canal, and so I don't think Sadat would have been able to implement his 'house to house' fighting directive, given that I don't think Israel planned to enter any cities.
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  Quote The Gypo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 18:24
Israel's plan was to occupy an area...then ask for a 100m free zone around any area it occupied due to fear of invasion...They would then build in this area to the border line and then ask for a further 100 metres...
 
As for wanting to occupy west of suez canal, they had the towns of Port Said and Ismailiyah under their control which would place them about 60kms east of Cairo...Too close for comfort.
 
Sadat planned his assault in a very peculiar way...He would orde the army to march to the Egyptian border, stop then turn around...This method cost very little for the egyptians due to the fact that they have a permanent military force whereas the Israeli military is primarily made up of citizens who must be paid wages to work in the army due to loss of civil work...
 
This excercise was repeated many times in the months leading up to October 1973, the Israeli intelligence grew tired of readying the army when it was apparent Sadat was doing nothing...
 
The planes of the Egyptian force were painted a shimmering silver-gold colour and were sent up at 2pm...This assault was perfectly planned due to the position of the sun making the airforce invisible to the naked eye by flying perpendicular to the sun.
 
The etiquette of war states that fighting should start at daybreak or morning, Sadat's orders to commence battle on a friday were unexpected and sudden
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  Quote J.M.Finegold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 18:31
Very interesting, but what does this have to do with what would have happened had Israel cut off the 3rd Army entirely and destroyed it?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 06:21
Israel did not have that capbility. It did not command the skies as it did in 67, and in anycase to cut off the Third army it had to have broken the ceasefire twice. Now if they had attempted to press ahead then Third army would have certainly tried to break out (and it did in some sectors AFAIK). ALso the Egyptians still had many reserves in while the Israelis were on their last limbs. Lets not forget in numbers of troops engaged the Israelis had outnumbered the Egyptians.
 
Also israel's stocks were almost depleted anyhow, despite US resupply, a long war is something they have always sought to avoid, this last Lebanon Conflict was their longest.
 
So to answer your question if Israel did attempt to destroy Third Army, it would probably be overwhelmed by the latter's braek out attempts and the relief forces sent, and I think the result would have been an utter defat in the Sanai (they were over extended anyhow) and Sharon's Division in Africa trapped between the Third Army and the relief forces.
 
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  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 09:28
Originally posted by Sparten

Israel did not have that capbility.
 
İ dont think sooWink
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 10:06

How so? At the end of the war some artillery batteries were so low on ammo that they were orderd to fire only a couple of rounds a day.

Israel was smart when it accepted the ceasefire.
 
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  Quote J.M.Finegold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 12:37
Sparten, the Israeli Third Army was perfectly capable of completely cutting off the Egyptian 3rd Army.  The corridor they opened was just that - they opened it, meaning they already had sorrounded the 3rd Army completely.  Furthermore, Egyptian SA-2 SAMs had for the most part been destroyed by the advancing Israeli armour, and there were deep raids by Israeli armour units to specifically destroy SA-2s and other surface to air missile launchers that were within range to hit Israeli close air support.  In other words, by the time the Israeli counterstroke was halfway completed the Israeli Air Force could operate unmolested once again, given that the Egyptians could not replace their SA-2s as fast as they were getting knocked out - the same with all their other weapons, as well.

Prior to the Israeli counterstroke the IDF was down to 2 weeks supply in the Sinai, but after the beginning of the American rearmament a week and a half into the war they were getting enough to serve them for months

Israel was very capable of destroying the 3rd Egyptian Army, and had the 2nd Army kept its pattern then it would have been destroyed as well, given that it failed to retreat across the Suez fast enough. 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 13:19
I disagree with you there again. The US resupply was mainly AAM missles and rockets. What about fuel? Or spares. Or artillery ammonition. The Americans could only send that in through sea power and that would take weeks and probably get the Sovs involved.
 
And the encircling forces for Third Army were pretty thin, in some areas a company was holding a BDE.  Not to mention in the hurry to perform the countercrossing (which was improvised) the israelis had left a lot of the artillery. An attack to destroy SA-2 sites with tanks would have been a disaster. Quite simply they would have come up againts Egyptian reserves who would be armed to the teethwith anti tank weapons, and the most davestating SAMs of the war the SA-6 and 7. The EAF was still functional and the Israelis would have been slaughtered if the attacked with armour only like they were on the first days attack.
 
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  Quote J.M.Finegold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 17:49
Sparten, the American airlift to Israel brought up to M48 tanks!  A large part was, yes, air to air missiles and F-4 Phantoms, but the majority was artillery munitions, rifle munitions, fuel et cetera! 

A book I would suggest that has a good description of the war, but focuses on the airlift is:  The Yom Kippur War: The Airlift that Saved Israel, by Walter J. Boyne. 


An attack to destroy SA-2 sites with tanks would have been a disaster.


Well, apparently not.  The principle way of knocking out SAM sites was during the advance across the Sinai and across the Suez.  In fact, the majority of the SA-2s were knocked out in that manner, and there were several deep operation raids towards Cairo to knock out close proximity SA-2s to allow Israeli CAS to function properly.  The Israelis were also able to knock out a large number of SA-2s using the American supplied AGM-45 Shrike anti-radiation missile.


The EAF was still functional and the Israelis would have been slaughtered if the attacked with armour only like they were on the first days attack.


IDF armour was disfunctional during the first weeks of the war because the IDF had not properly designed combined operations between infantry and armour, meaning that Egyptian infantry teams with cheap Soviet anti-tank missiles and rockets could pulverize Israeli tanks.  However, the IDF was quick to learn and was able to cooperate APCs with armour in order to knock out Egyptian anti-tank teams and SAM teams.

A good book dealing with this in a general overview is: Combined Arms in Warfare Since 1939, by Jonathan M. House.

By late Octover the Egyptian Army was a shadow of its former self.
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