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Finest Army of the 20th Century

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Poll Question: Japanese Army 1905
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
5 [1.89%]
15 [5.68%]
77 [29.17%]
61 [23.11%]
82 [31.06%]
21 [7.95%]
3 [1.14%]
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Praetorian View Drop Down
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  Quote Praetorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Finest Army of the 20th Century
    Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 13:19

"I voted for Wehrmacht 1940, they were superior to any other army at the time, and they proved it time after time on the battlefield. The only problem where it's leaders, like Hitler, they are the ones who ****ed it up as the war went on, not the army itself."

 

Thats true, Hitle cept on intervene with the...it's not the army itself.

Ill say more stuf some other time.

 

You also got see is that Gremany was in the worst depression in the wrold, and in a decade or two Gremany be came a top world power...

Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris
--If Caesar were alive, you'd be chained to an oar.

"game over!! man game over!!"
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  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 17:03
In my opinion this is almost not up for debate because an army includes its effective hardware. When Paul included the 1989 US Army, there isnt a better force.

The Wehrmacht makes a good case for the best 'troops' of the Century without a doubt. Although fighting an unprepared enemy at the beginning of WW2, there are countless examples of genious, discipline and grit against over-whelming odds. They got my vote anyway.

High mention goes to the US Marines in the Pacific Theater that fought in just as vicious battles as the Eastern Front against the stubborn Japanese. The US Army could not keep up with the Marines in some cases.

The Spanish Blue Division(German 250th Infantry) that had the greatest sustained march of the war, fought in hundreds of major/minor clashes with Soviet forces and wasnt slowed till it finally retired from Leningrad.
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  Quote dark_one Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 19:33
 BEF in 1914. They saved the West, ultimately saving the East.
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  Quote Mobius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 18:37

(MY POST! IT ATE MY POST!)

Sorry. Anyway, I voted for the IDF based on the results of the six day war and Yom kippur (IDF 2, Everyone else 0).

But out of the options listed, the 1945 Red Army has to be the finest. After surviving an invasion they left them as a shattered force having lost millions of troops and 90% of their equipment, they stubbornly held out, built up, and after some of the most destructive battles we have seen in modern times (The 900 day seige of Leningrad and destruction of the german sixth army at Stalingrad spring to mind, not to mention Kursk!), they were forged into an unstoppable force.

Equipment was world class (for the time period), logistics and organisation were fantastic, the leadership (ignore Stalin - think Zhukov!) was brilliant, and most importantly the troops were pretty much 100% veterans.

And if you want to see what sort of difference that makes, look at how the wehrmacht of 1944 - 1945 were able to hold off 3 seperate armies (2 allied, 1 russian) with the few troops they had left, terrible logistics, shattered transport grids, great equipment - but only if you could get it!!

I think if you took the russian army (heck, throw in the airforce as well), equipped it with the same equipment as the US had in, say, 1989.... allow the red army to train to the same level of proficency with the new equipment as they had with their old, then see who wins.

In this case, my money would be on the Red Army (1945) EVERY time!

 

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds"

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  Quote RED GUARD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2005 at 09:01

       Long live the great Red Guards of the Red Army!
Quotes by your's turly:

"I came, I saw, and I conquered... but only for the weekend"

"This is my tank, this is my weapon, and this is my pride."

"Power comes from a barrel of a gun."

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  Quote Riain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2005 at 16:57
The German army system made the most out of the fighting man compared to every other army, except perhaps the Iraelis. They won their victories when outnumbered and outgunned and fought with stubbornenss when all hope was lost, on 3 fronts against 3 of the 4 most powerful countries in the world. Given proper support from a well run political system Germany would have won ww1 and/or 2 due to the greater fighting power of its men.
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  Quote Praetorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2005 at 19:33

"Long live the great Red Guards of the Red Army!"

LOL Please, dont get me into what the Marines can do to the Red Army


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  Quote England The Great Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 03:35

I'd have to say the BEf of 1914. Von Kluck called them 'an incomparable Army.' after the battle of Mons.

Everybody had the Wehrmacht, even the French. I was reading this yesterday:

Meanwhile, the French II Corps had been fighting hard throughout April after an improvised but brilliantly successful crossing of the Rhine at Speyer. Against powerful and effective resistance from the German 19th Army, the French took Karlsruhe on April 4th and, in a constantly changing battle reminiscent of greater days of the German army, captured Pforzheim on April 8th. On April 20th, again after fierce battles, the French captured Tubingen and took 28,000 prisoners. Five days later, General de Lattre's formidable French Colonial Army took another 40,000 German prisoners when General Keppler's XVIII SS Corps was cut off and encircled on the Swiss border.

At the end of April, General de Lattre ordered his I Corps to attack the German 24th Army, whose defined role was to prevent the French entering Austria. They lost no time. On April 30th, the 4th Moroccan Mountain Division and the French 5th Armoured Division took Bregenz, and from there on made a flower-decked progress through Austria as the populace welcomed them as liberators. On May 7th Kesselring capitulated to General Devers and a cease-fire was declared in Austria, thus preventing any further damage to a beautiful country.

 

check out my site and where it says (sister page) too.

http://www.expage.com/englandthegreat

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  Quote Irishbagpipes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2010 at 22:22
Undoubtedly the Germans take the cake for best trained army from 1900-1940, however I consider the military leaders to be a part of the army, so I would have to say America for WWII and beyond.  The Soviet Union's generals were terrible in the fact that they could defeat the German army without superior numbers, and by superior numbers I mean millions of men (literally).  The Wehrmacht army was well trained and had great generals (Rommel) but the Kaiser and Hitler were both foolish military leaders.  The Japanese navy is to be commended, however, their blunder at Midway keeps them from taking the prize.  The US military was not only the best equipped, (no tiger tanks, but they had 20 Shermans to every tiger), but they consistently had great training throughout all of the wars from beginning to end.  The last half of the Twentieth century goes to either Israel or the US.  Israel's victory was a miracle in itself.  And the US has had the best trained/equipped semi-professional army since Vietnam.
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2010 at 07:57
Originally posted by Irishbagpipes

The Soviet Union's generals were terrible in the fact that they could defeat the German army without superior numbers, and by superior numbers I mean millions of men (literally).  
 
Soviet generals need to be studied as two groups:
-divisional level generals 
-strategic level generals
 
Soviet Strategic generals like Zhukov, Koniev, Rokossovsky, Vatutin were just as skilled and as talented as their German opponents.  This is especially so for Zhukov who repeatedly demontrated that he could beat the Wermacht during its "Glory Days".
 
Lower raking, Soviet Generals, however, were usually always out performed by their German counterparts. In the end, the very talented Soviet senior command was supported by officers who could not compete with the Germans.
Originally posted by England The Great

Everybody had the Wehrmacht, even the French. I was reading this yesterday...
I disagree.  Everybody had some units and some generals who could compete with and beat the Wermacht. The Germans, however, created a military that when evenly matched, could beat almost all opponents. In the end, the Germans constantly out performed their opponents on a unit by unit average. 


Edited by Cryptic - 19-Apr-2010 at 12:38
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2010 at 10:28
I agree, the German military and military industry was by far the best the world had ever seen. Most military technologies today and many military tactics are from the Germans.


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 19-Apr-2010 at 10:29
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2010 at 14:06
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

I agree, the German military and military industry was by far the best the world had ever seen. Most military technologies today and many military tactics are from the Germans.
I think the only competitors that Germany has had in the last century are:
-The British Expeditionary Force, 1914
-Israel, 1948 to 1990
 
Of these, the Israelis copied German military thought almost verbatim and the British Expeditionary force was an elite force of only about 150,000 men.  The Germans achieved degrees of military excellence form their entire society.
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2010 at 17:14
I dont think you can count Israel. Israel recieved massive amounts of aid to become what it is (its estimated that Israel has gotten over 100 billion from the United States alone).

Germany had no such advantage. Germany's military and industrial might was built during the 1930's after a severe depression (one of the worst in the world at the time).
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2010 at 17:40
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

I dont think you can count Israel. Israel recieved massive amounts of aid to become what it is (its estimated that Israel has gotten over 100 billion from the United States alone).

Germany had no such advantage. Germany's military and industrial might was built during the 1930's after a severe depression (one of the worst in the world at the time).
Good point. But Israel only started receiving the insane amounts of aid  and total technology transfers after the Peace Treaty with Egypt. The Israelis won their most spectacular victories (1967 and 1973) while using large amounts of obsolete equipment (1967) or by using acceptable, but not vastly superior equipment (1973).  Also the heralded Entebbe Raid was in the 1970s.
 
Ironically, once the Israelis obtained technological dominance, their military capabilities began to diminish. Israeli ground performance in Lebanon (1980s) was good but not awe inspiring and U.S. observers noted a decline. In 2008, their performance agaisnt Hezbollah had slipped to very mediocre.
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2010 at 17:58
Originally posted by Cryptic

Good point. But Israel only started receiving the insane amounts of aid  and total technology transfers after the Peace Treaty with Egypt. The Israelis won their most spectacular victories (1967 and 1973) while using large amounts of obsolete equipment (1967) or by using acceptable, but not vastly superior equipment (1973).  Also the heralded Entebbe Raid was in the 1970s.
 
Ironically, once the Israelis obtained technological dominance, their military capabilities began to diminish. Israeli ground performance in Lebanon (1980s) was good but not awe inspiring and U.S. observers noted a decline. In 2008, their performance agaisnt Hezbollah had slipped to very mediocre.


Once again, I must disagree. The enemies Israel were facing were backward, undeveloped, newly independent states. So what if Israel defeated Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon in war? Thats not something I would brag about.

Germany was facing the British Empire, the French Empire, and the Russian Empire. You cannot compare Germany to Israel, they are not similar in anyway.


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 19-Apr-2010 at 17:59
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2010 at 18:44
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba


Once again, I must disagree. The enemies Israel were facing were backward, undeveloped, newly independent states. So what if Israel defeated Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon in war? Thats not something I would brag about.
I think you need to give the Israelis more credit.  In 1948, Israeli was also an undeveloped country with an agricultural economy. Israel had an agricultural economy until the late 1970s.
 
Jordan's British trained Arab Legion was the best army in the middle east.  Though Israel benefited from foreign volunteers with WWII command experience, a certain number of pro Arab British officers either continued to provide advice and/or ensured that British military supplies were turned over to the Jordanians intact and well maintained.
 
In 1967, the semi socialist countries of Egypt and Syria received massive amounts of the latest Soviet weaponry and thousands of advisors.  By 1973, the Soviets wanted a socialist Arab victory to complement the looming victory of the North Vietnamese.  Arab armies received advanced weapons before most Soviet units did.
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba


Germany was facing the British Empire, the French Empire, and the Russian Empire.
The German accomplishments are higher, but the early Israelis cannot be discounted.
 


Edited by Cryptic - 19-Apr-2010 at 18:47
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2010 at 15:54
Originally posted by Cryptic

I think you need to give the Israelis more credit.  In 1948, Israeli was also an undeveloped country with an agricultural economy. Israel had an agricultural economy until the late 1970s.
 
Jordan's British trained Arab Legion was the best army in the middle east.  Though Israel benefited from foreign volunteers with WWII command experience, a certain number of pro Arab British officers either continued to provide advice and/or ensured that British military supplies were turned over to the Jordanians intact and well maintained.


True, but that was 1948, and the Israeli's were far more organized than the Arabs. Infact, the Israeli's actually had more men in the field than the Arabs did.
 
Originally posted by Cryptic


In 1967, the semi socialist countries of Egypt and Syria received massive amounts of the latest Soviet weaponry and thousands of advisors.  By 1973, the Soviets wanted a socialist Arab victory to complement the looming victory of the North Vietnamese.  Arab armies received advanced weapons before most Soviet units did.


I was under the impression that the Soviets never gave the Arabs their latest equipment for fear of them being captured by the Israeli's. In most cases Arabs were fighting with inferior weaponry compared to what Israel was getting from Europe and the US


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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2010 at 17:13
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

I was under the impression that the Soviets never gave the Arabs their latest equipment for fear of them being captured by the Israeli's. 
 
It is the exact opposite for the 1967 war and especially, the 1973, Yom Kippur war.  The Soviets gave the Arabs the best weapons and the best advisors that they could produce. Examples include the SAM-6 and SAM-7 mobile anti aircraft missiles, ZSU 23-4 mobile AA system, Sagger anti tank missiles, improved RPGs (new in 1973), ultra long range artillery, T-62 tanks, BMPs etc.
 
The mobile anti aircraft missiles and Saggers gave the Israelis a very nasty surprise. During the conflict, the Soviets supplied replacement missiles, tanks etc direct from elite Soviet units in East Germany. Most Soviet units simply did not have these weapons  The Soviets really wanted their semi socialist Arab clients to win a stunning victory to compliment Vietnam. 
 
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

  In most cases Arabs were fighting with inferior weaponry compared to what Israel was getting from Europe and the US
That is only true for after 1973, when the modern Soviet equipment caused very heavy Israeli casualties.  For 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973 wars, the Arabs had either equal equipment or in 1973,  better equipment.


Edited by Cryptic - 22-Apr-2010 at 17:33
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2010 at 22:47
The US army has been to best Army in the World from 1943 on. There is no doubt to that. I would question some diplomatic decsions that were done that prevented the Army from being completely successful.
 
Remeber the 4 components of national power =D.I.M.E.
 
Diplomatic
Information
Military
Economics
 
So an Amy cannot be completley successfull unless all components of national power are used.
 
That being said- The US infantry of the 90's was the best trained and effective Infantry the worls has ever seen.
 
The US infantry of today is 3x better. There is no Army in the history of the world that has had the training and the technological edge that the US Army has.
 
To put thems into persepective, One US Arny BCT circa 1995 had the equiv forepower of 4 1940 German divisions.
 
What did the US do to the 4th largest standing Army in the World in 1990, they were destroying Iraqi T 72s (prettymuch cutting edge tank technology) I know the T-80 was out there, but it was not fielded in  masses yet and the M1 IP and the M1A1 were engaging them and destroying them from 2 miles away
 
Now you may say well why is the US Army tied down in 2 wars for over 10 years. Ok valid question. Remember the DIME the I is what holds the US back. If the US was allowed to engage in WW2 style total warfare both wars would have been over in Months. However the media and diplomatic pressures prevent this.
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2010 at 22:51
On Isreal:
 
The Isreali army is outstanding well trainded and disciplined- However without US support they would not fare as well.
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