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America: Freedom to Fascism

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  Quote Roadkill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: America: Freedom to Fascism
    Posted: 19-Aug-2006 at 19:00
"The constitution is just a goddamn piece of paper"
--George W. Bush - Nov. 2005

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FreedomtoFascism.com

 -The movie is out now so see it if possible!

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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2006 at 21:30
Interesting unfortunatly sounds very libertarian-reaganist but never mind.

Yet two critics have to be made: writen laws are NOT the only laws a country has (e. g. the UK has no constitution). And secondly, I live in a country with ID card, I have to say that even if theoretically I don't like it, on a daily basis there is no problem (note that I'm white looking wealthy and that my Arab friends may disagree but then again in no ID countries the issue is the same on police's racism).
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  Quote Roadkill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2006 at 21:48
Yes, written laws are the only laws a country has. And on the second point, research the ways the ID system will be enforced in the US and you'll see the problem.

 -And no, this is not a democrats vs. republicans documentary, it is about the federal reserve, a private company that prints US currency, and how it has hijacked the US government. The US gov. has to loan money from the Fed res. and pay interest on that money, which is why the US is in such debt, and the income tax that US citizens pay is actually not an enforcable tax, there's no law that requires you to pay this tax, yet people have been incarsorated for breaking an inexistant law. The revenue from the income tax is used to pay off the interest the US gov. must pay for lending money from the fed res!
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2006 at 21:55
just curious but is that how it's also done in Norway?
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2006 at 22:06
At every scales of a country life you have un-written laws.
Who gave the first assembly (the one voting the constitution) the rights to do so: an unwritten law.
Where are the constitutions of the UK and Israel?
On what do the French (and not only as most of Eastern European countries have adopted the same system) Suprem Court (named Constitutional Council) bases it decisions? Nothing some laws and principles that exist by themself.
In most of countries (don't know for Norway) you have traditional rules that don't need to be writen (e. g. a woman can leave a store like Chanel or Yves Saint Laurent without paying as it is understood she'll come back to pay, and this costum is enforced by the judges in France).
Last but not least: what do the American judges do (from the comty to the suprem court) when they start a new jurisprudence but enforcing an unwritten law.

Not only that but unwritten law are everywhere and change. For instance if a 1813 law states a father is not entitled to make  his children endure "barbaric treatments", the understanding of "barbaric treatments" can change a lot from 1813 and 2006. The law has changed but nothing has been writen...

How does the ID system works?

I meant usually libertarian utopies end up as reganian nightmares.

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  Quote Roadkill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2006 at 23:31
 -That's interpreting laws, not unwritten laws(With the exception of the third point). There's a big difference.

just curious but is that how it's also done in Norway?


 -What are you referring to here?
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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2006 at 00:02
I'd respond, but then the thought police would have me on file.
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2006 at 00:04
Originally posted by Roadkill

 -That's interpreting laws, not unwritten laws(With the exception of the third point). There's a big difference.

just curious but is that how it's also done in Norway?


 -What are you referring to here?
 
a comparison of how they obtain their monies ie. direct taxation etc..?
 
governmental controlled based on gold standard? exports..minerals and oil revenue etc.
 
thanks.


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 20-Aug-2006 at 00:05
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2006 at 13:32
The Ninth Amendment to the US Constitution enshrines the principle of unwritten laws in the United States:
 
It says: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
 
What those rights retained are is nowhere written down. For instance, the 'right to privacy' ias assumed covered by the Ninth Amendment. Since abortion was legal in the states at the time the amendment was passed, the Ninth also covers the right to have an abortion.
 
Or take Article 1 of the Dclaration des Droits de l'Homme, which is still recognised as the foundation of the present French constitution:
"Les hommes naissent et demeurent libres et gaux en droits. Les distinctions sociales ne peuvent tre fondes que sur l'utilit commune." ("Men are born and live free and with equal rights. Social distinctions can only be based on the common good.")
What constitutes the "common good" is nowhere written down.

And of course the British constitution is not written down at all.
 
It is very difficult indeed (if it's possible at all) to define everything in a legal system.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2006 at 13:53
 
Originally posted by Roadkill


 -And no, this is not a democrats vs. republicans documentary, it is about the federal reserve, a private company that prints US currency, and how it has hijacked the US government.
The Federal Reserve is not a private company, though it is possible to hold stock in it. Indeed it is not even a bank, but a system of 12 seperate federal reserve banks each of which is privately (and separately) owned but, as re-established in 1935, controlled by an independent federal agency, the Governors of the Federal Reserve System. Members of the board are appointed by the President, and, as with independent federal agencies in general, are thereafter more or less independent.
 
 
The US gov. has to loan money from the Fed res. and pay interest on that money, which is why the US is in such debt,
The reason the US is in so much debt is that it is profligate and spends much more than it raises in taxes. In fact it borrows most of its money directly from investors, many of them overseas, in the form of Treasury bond issues.
 
and the income tax that US citizens pay is actually not an enforcable tax, there's no law that requires you to pay this tax, yet people have been incarsorated for breaking an inexistant law. The revenue from the income tax is used to pay off the interest the US gov. must pay for lending money from the fed res!
The law is laid down in Amendment XVI to the constitution, passed in 1913: "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census of enumeration."
 
You can't get much more definite than that.
 
Additionally the power of the IRS to formulate legally binding regulations is authorised by the Administrative Procedure Act of 1946. In addition the laws regarding non-payment and evasion of taxes, fraud in declarations and other stuff is spelt out in USC Title 26 paras 7201-7212 and in Title 18 paragraph 371.
 
Where you get the idea from that income tax and its collection are not lawful in the US I have no idea. Unless you are still going by the decision of the Supreme Court in 1895 (Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & Trust Co) that taxes that were not proportional to states' populations were unconstitutional. But that was overridden by the XVIth amendment.
 

 
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2006 at 13:54
Did anyone read Upton Sinclair's It Can't Happen Here?
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  Quote Roadkill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2006 at 17:48
 -Firstly, I'm merely stating what the movie is about. Wether it is true or not I'll not debate. Just a short addition though; Supreme Court rulings all the way up to 1913 or something all stated that no new taxes could be imposed  by the 16th amendement and that an income tax is unconstitutional. Also, if you ask the IRS where the law is they can't show it to you. Why not? By the way, am I correct on that year? I may be mixing some things up.

 -As for unwritten laws, the examples you've given above are still just interpretations.
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2006 at 18:26
here's some help if you like on the tax thing.........how about that deal with Norway?
 
 
ps. ref. unwritten law....the lawyers and jurists disagree with you.fancy that.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In its most general and comprehensive sense, law signifies a rule of action, and is applied indiscriminately to all kinds of action; whether animate or inanimate, rational or irrational. In its more confined sense, law denotes the rule, not of actions in general, but of human action or conduct.

Law is generally divided into four principle classes, namely: Natural law; The law of nations; Public law; and, Private or civil law.

When considered in relation to its origin, it is statute law or common law.
When examined as to its different systems it is divided into civil law, common law, canon law.
When applied to objects, it is civil, criminal or penal.

It is also divided into natural law and positive law. Into written law, lex scripta; and unwritten law, lex non scripta. Into law merchant, martial law, municipal law and foreign law. When considered as to their duration, laws are immutable and arbitrary or positive. When viewed as to their effect, they are prospective and retrospective.
 
 


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 20-Aug-2006 at 18:33
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 05:13
 
Originally posted by Roadkill

 -Firstly, I'm merely stating what the movie is about. Wether it is true or not I'll not debate. Just a short addition though; Supreme Court rulings all the way up to 1913 or something all stated that no new taxes could be imposed  by the 16th amendement and that an income tax is unconstitutional.
 
Pre-1913 federal taxes that were not proportionate to states' populations were unconstitutional. The XVIth amendment wasn't passed till 1913, so rulings before that could not possibly have referred to it.
 
The XVIth amendment was passed specifically in order to override the previous position. It quite clearly states "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census of enumeration." What more could you want to make income taxes constitutional than a clear statement that "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes"?
 


Also, if you ask the IRS where the law is they can't show it to you.
Yes they can. I quoted them to you - Title 26 USC and Title 18 USC are the specuific laws in question. For a full description Wikipedia is quite good at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Revenue_Code
 
If I can quote the relevant laws, what makes you think the IRS can't.
 
Someone's pulling your leg and you're falling for it.
 
 
Why not? By the way, am I correct on that year? I may be mixing some things up.
Obviously.

 -As for unwritten laws, the examples you've given above are still just interpretations.
 
No. Judges may interpret them but I did not quote judges, but the law. What I quoted were references to unwritten laws: obviously I can't quote unwritten ones because they're unwritten.
 
For instance it is nowhere written that England should be a monarchy. There is a written law as to who should succeed to the throne, but no written law to say there should be a throne in the first place.
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 21-Aug-2006 at 05:14
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 05:19
It occurs to me that Bertrand Russell would probably have loved the statement "It is nowhere written that England should have a monarchy". It is a paradox since I have just written "England should have a monarchy" so it IS written somewhere, even though it may not have been when I started the sentence.
 
But that thought belongs in the philosophy forum. I meant of course that "there is no written law that says England should be a monarchy."
 
And, incidentally, where is the written law that says one of the United States does not have the right to secede from the Union?


Edited by gcle2003 - 21-Aug-2006 at 05:35
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 05:41
 
Originally posted by Roadkill

"The constitution is just a goddamn piece of paper"
--George W. Bush - Nov. 2005

Trailer - Youtube.com

FreedomtoFascism.com
 
 
I looked at the site and it's a pity that some quite sensible stuff is mixed up with nutty things like returning America's gold and having it audited and claiming there's no legal basis for the income tax.
 
I note that the maker has had to go to Germany for advanced surgery for bladder cancer. I had to myself some years ago. I wish him well and trust it will be as successful as mine was.
 
When I was in hospital in the US two years ago (not for cancer) and described to the doctors there the operation I had had they had never even heard of it.


 


Edited by gcle2003 - 21-Aug-2006 at 05:42
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 07:12
Originally posted by gcle2003

Did anyone read Upton Sinclair's It Can't Happen Here?

Yes, I read it a few months ago. I really liked it, especially the way disgruntled underdogs use the situation to become leaders and command others was very well described.

(the writer is Sinclair Lewis btw, not Upton Sinclair)
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  Quote Qin Dynasty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 08:18
no need to worry too much, as long as the thought of freedom rooted in its people's heart.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 10:13
Originally posted by Mixcoatl

Originally posted by gcle2003

Did anyone read Upton Sinclair's It Can't Happen Here?

Yes, I read it a few months ago. I really liked it, especially the way disgruntled underdogs use the situation to become leaders and command others was very well described.

(the writer is Sinclair Lewis btw, not Upton Sinclair)
 
Sorry, yes, you're quite right. I do tend to mix the names up.
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  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 15:51
Originally posted by Maharbbal

... I live in a country with ID card, I have to say that even if theoretically I don't like it, on a daily basis there is no problem (note that I'm white looking wealthy and that my Arab friends may disagree but then again in no ID countries the issue is the same on police's racism).

    
Hi Maharbbah - what do you mean by ID card? Do you mean you are legal status immigrant? Is that, for example, like an SSN in the U.S.? or is it some type of driver's license...I'm not grasping it! And what benefits do you get from having such an ID card, if any? Just being curious!
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