Big Elections for Joe Lieberman

Originally posted by Tobodai   Your general attitude is to bash the whole of European society.  Just as it is not fair for them to judge all of us in one blanket, I would say the same goes for us.  You seem way to intent on starting some kind of Euro-American flame war.    If someone acts in what you perceive as a heinously pompous manner, call them on it, dont discredit your entire point by dissing their entire society.

I am not trying to start a flame war...I am not interested in those.

this statement really got under my skin

Extreme left? US has no such thing. Your Democrats would be Right wing Liberals here, your Republicans would be considered facist or religous fanatics, people we laugh at... What you think is extreme left is in fact no more than Central Democratic...

So I decided to post my 2 cents.

Then when I made my own reply I think Alefgifu�s true attitude toward America and its population in general came out. He persoanlly admits to haveing a negative predjudice toward Americans (as I did admit to having one toward Europeans).

I am not trying to bash the EUropean society though I do it if i feel a European is going to bash my society. You all may say I dont know enough about Europe to make such opinions...I would then argue that people like Alefgifu have no basis for forming opinions such as "...Americans know dick about the world."

The only vibe I really get from Europe is this: They look down at America and Americans.

Am I wrong? Are EUropeans not looking down on us?

I undersand I could be incorrect in this accessment.

In any event, I appologize for the crap storm I created.

I mean I devoted a whole thread to criticizing how people like Alefgifu think and no one really noticed it (intentionally or unitentionally) though I wasnt too blunt about it either.

Edited by Aelfgifu - 11-Aug-2006 at 04:00

I hear the dutch are good negotiators

Originally posted by Mila Pretty well? They rank at the top of every quality of life, economic, health care, etc. list I've ever seen.

Edited by Genghis - 11-Aug-2006 at 21:38

Originally posted by Loknar   Now as to my opinion on socialism...well i dont know how it works in the Netherlands. maybve it works OK. I would ask this...when people work in the Netherlands in manual labor jobs do people work hard? Can people be fired? People have the idea that Americans are lazy...this is extremely untrue. Even people my own age are dedicated workers. Sure you see some who are not but when my boss tells me to do something I do it no matter how hard it is. I can be fired at any time... During the week...I get up at 7AM, go to school from 9am to 2am. I study for 3 hours, do my homework ect then I head to work from 5pm to 10pm...not counting the studying that is a 10 hour day. I am only at home to sleep during the week. EVen then I am up until 2am many nights... My story isnt uncommon...im just saying americans arent lazy as people may thinjk.   Anyway...there is nothing wrong with discussing politics in a cafe.

I doubt that was his only reasons.    Lieberman is also a conservative Jew, and the #1 threat to Israel's existence was Saddam Hussein.

Actually I wouldn't call the Netherlands (or Scandinavia, since I think it's fair to say that social-economically/politically the Netherlands is Scandinavian) is socialist, definately not nowadays. In the Netherlands the welfare state has been created for the most part in the 1950ths, when the country was ruled by a very broad coalition of social-democrats, christians and liberals, and because of that there have never been attempts to seriously limit the free market/capitalist system. For example there have never been large scale nationalizations. The economic system has always been more capitalist than socialist, the welfare state was designed as a safety net to take away the bad effects of capitalism. At least theoretically speaking, real socialist countries (whatever that may mean) don't need such a safety net.

And as Aelfgifu said, the Dutch welfare state is being broken down rapidly, with support even of the social democrats (although not as enthausiastically as the liberals and christian democrats). After privatizations and other neoliberal reforms education and healthcare are in a rather bad state, and I don't think it will be any better soon.

[rant]The latest education reform (they're reforming the educational system every 5 years or so) Aelfgifu talked about is another ridiculous one in which universties are considered companies who should compete with each other. According to the reforms it should become possible to swich to another university every month, which is already simply impossible physically speaking, let alone financially and bureaucratically. Also students who study more than 5 years have to pay a ridiculously high college money (IIRC it will be 15000 EUR/y) in order to have students study quicker (it is interesting to note that our current education minister spent 8 years at university). Universities, student organizations and even parts of the business world strongly oppose the reforms, but nonetheless it has been stubbornly pushed through. And that while the Dutch education system is already the least funded (and IMO also one of the worst) of Europe.[/rant]

Yes this has moved alot.  I want to continue gloating that the first senator who I ever leanred to despise all the way back in middle school is one of the first senators to loose a primary in decades.