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Top 100 Generals

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DSMyers1 View Drop Down
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  Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Top 100 Generals
    Posted: 05-Aug-2006 at 09:23
Originally posted by Temujin


rider:  "I believe that Suvorov was in command at every battle that can be counted as his own, and I also think that he was undefeated."
 
he also participated in the battles of the 7 years war with the Russian army, but he was not commander in chief. Russia lost none of those battles.



I need to look into moving Suvarov higher up the list.  I also need to learn more about him.  It seems a lot of people think he is worthy of the top ten.  Of course, those people are from the same general area of the world. 

It's amazing how much bias is there, simply from ignorance of other areas of the world.  It's not like any of us wants to be biased, we simply haven't the understanding of all areas of history.


Edited by DSMyers1 - 05-Aug-2006 at 09:27
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  Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2006 at 09:26
Originally posted by Temujin

i made a list of my top 10 commanders. note that for my considderations of top 10 commanders i value fighting against great odds really high, as you will see from the final list, and most of them were both rulers & generals, those generals that were not rulers of their country i valued by the enemies they fought (diverse enemies). the list itself has not really a particular order however, just to get an idea of the top ones...
 
1. Temujin
2. Napoleon I
3. Timur
4. Frederick II
5. Nadir Shah
6. Nurhaci
7. Baji Rao
8. Sube'edai
9. Suvorov
10. Eugene of Savoy
 
 
another fascinating commander i just stumbeled on is Stefan (Steven) the Great of Moldavia. probably would make it to my personal top 10 as well.


Wow, I just read Stefan's entry in the Wikipedia.  He definately should be on the list.

Who is Baji Rao, by the way?  I don't think I have him on the list, or is it another name for one who is on the list?
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2006 at 11:36
Actually it is quite impossible to completely understand and know the history of all regions on Earth. I know much more of Europes history because usually it is spoken of and I live in Europe. I know practically nothing of the Pacific Islands' history nor Africa's but in the beginning nothing 'important' happened there either. Important for Europeans I mean. I do not count Northern Africa into this now.

Ofcourse, those who live in Asia or Australia or Africa know much of their own history but the most users in this topic are from Europe or Eurasia so simply we are biased towards those commanders of whom we have been taught.
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  Quote Travis Congleton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2006 at 12:48
Below is an old portfolio of Suvorov that I created several years ago.  I haven't updated it to the new format, since I have taken a break from the Top 100 Commanders list (#33 was his ranking back in 2002).


33.
       Aleksandr Vasilevich Suvorov (1730-1800)
Russian General

Seven Years War; Berlin Occupation.  1760

Fought at Kunersdork, Berlin, and Kolberg.

Captured Krakow during Polish Intervention.  1762

Successful performance during the Russo-Polish Conflict.  1768-72

...winning battles at Orekhovo, Landskorn, Saowicz and Krakow.


Served in Danubian army during Turkish War.
  1768-1774
Two successful descents on Turkukai.

Successful storming, and then defense, of Hirsov.

Brilliant tactical direction against much larger Turkish army of Abder-Rezak Pasha
at Kozludji.  1774
Too late to suppressed the Russian peasant revolt led by Yemelyan Pugachov,
but escorted its leader into captivity.  1774
Expedition into Persia was abortive.

Showed victorious flair in Second Turkish War.  1787-1792
Successfully defended north shore of the Black Sea from Turkish attacks.
Twice victorious over the Turks at the coastal fortress of Kinburn.  1787
Prevented a Turkish landing in the Crimea.
Stormed and took Ochakov.  1788
With Austrian General Prince Josias von Saxe-Coburg, defeated Osman Pasha at Focsani.  1789
Drove Yusuf Pashas main army from its camps on the Rymnik River.
Gain fame for the successful storming of
Izmail, but also notoriety for the slaughter of most of its defenders.  1790
Suppressed Thaddeusz Kosciuszkos Polish Revolt.
...victorious at Krupshchitse, Brest-Litovsk, Kobila and Praga-Warszawa.
Recalled and ruthlessly crushed the Nationalist-Revolutionary Movement in Poland.  (After the storming of Warsaw, a slaughter occurred.)  1794
Participated in the forced resettlement of Christians in the Crimea.
Pursued and massacred the Nogai tribe in the Kuban.
Dismissed in 1799.
Recalled to command a Russo-Austrian army during the War of the Second Coalition in Switzerland against France.
Erased most of Bonapartes gains of 1796 and 1797, routing lieutenants;  1799
Jean-Victor Moreau at Cassano dAdda,
Etienne Macdonald at the Trebbia River,
Barthelemy C. Joubert at Novi..
drove the French out of Italy.

SWITZERLAND EVENTS
Despite vigorous protests, Czar Paul ordered him to march over the Alps to replace the Austrian element (He had wished to invade France)The Austrian army, under command of Archduke Charles, had been defeated by French general Andre Massena and transferred half of the 80,000-man army to the Netherlands, leaving 12,000 at St. Gotthard Pass.  Massena turned on the Russian 20,000 strong commanded by General Prince Alekandr Rimsky-Korsakov and mauled him with 8,000 casualties.  Suvorovs 18,000 Russian regulars and 5,000 Cossacks were exhausted and short of provisions when confronted by Massenas 80,000 strong.  Suvorov set out to extract his army from an apparently hopeless situation.  Undertook historically unparalleled withdrawal over the Alps.  Making their way through Pragel Pass to Glarus.  The French reached Glarus first, Suvorov evaded their trap by redirecting his troops through the village of Elm.  Trekked through deep snows of Panixer Pass and into the 9,000-foot mountains of the Bundner Oberland.  Escaped the encirclement and reached Chur on the Rhine with 16,000 soldiers.
Summarily stripped of his command, rank, and histitles.  1800
(56 days later he dies.)
Outstanding military theorist, tactician, and strategist.
Six times in his career he was seriously wounded.
Unimportant, but credited with winning 63 battles without suffering a single major defeat.
Wrote manual notable for its realistic emphasis on battle training.
Earned reputation as a self-willed subordinate.
Unorthodox tactician.
Believed that opportunities in battle are created by fortune, but exploited by intelligence, experience and an intuitive eye.
Developed a good understanding of engineering, siege warfare, artillery and fortification.
Extolled patient systematic, practical and rigorous training under simulated battlefield conditions.
Viewed the maneuvering of armies and the occupation of territory, cities and fortresses not as ends in themselves, but as a means of destroying the enemys source of supply and reinforcements.
His objective was to concentrate his own forces for a decisive mass attack that would annihilate the enemy.
Demanded discipline and sacrifice.

Believed that a Short, Total War was less expensive in men and material than a war of attrition, excepted in the case of guerrilla warfare.  A strategy of attrition must be applied to the elusive enemy, in order to deny the rebels the opportunity to use the countryside.

At a tactical level, stressed three fundamental principles: coup doeil, speed and impact.

Coup doeil: ability to assess a situaion at a glance, to know how to select the site for a camp, when and how to march, and where to attack.

Guiding principle: devastating attacks concentrated at the weakest point.

Favored light infantrymen as skirmishers and sharpshooters, and preferred aimed fire to the massed volleys of line infantry.

Used different sizes and types of formations against different foessquares against the Turks, lines against Poles and columns against the French.

Held firm belief in the psychological advantage of surprise, keep his plans secret.

Undertook a minimum number of careful reconnaissance, for fear that
the enemy would decipher his movements and intentions.

Weaknesses: (1) Most of his opponents were quite weak.  (2) The slaughter after the captures of Ochakov, Izmail and Praga-Warsqawa tainted his image in Western eyes.  (3) Willingness to let troops plunder conquered territories gave Russian a bad reputation throughout Europe.

Also preferred assaults with cold steel for their psychological effect.

No understanding of, nor interest in, politics.

Maintained that the supreme commanders must have full authority, yet he

never had absolute freedom of command or initiative in wartime often

missing opportunities to grasp strategy victories.

Publicly criticized the introduction of Prussian-style military discipline,

which he regarded as cruel and useless.

 

- Aleksandr Suvorov
---------------------------

Pulia duraka, no shtyk molodets

             

- Aleksandr Suvorov
---------------------------
I have shed rivers of blood, and this horrifies me.

 

- Aleksandr Suvorov
----------------------------

A military man must know the languages of the nations with whom he is fighting,

 

- Aleksandr Suvorov
---------------------------

Train hard, fight easy, train easy and you will have very hard fighting.

 

- Aleksandr Suvorov
----------------------------

Dont distract with small fights, deliver heavy blows, pass in masses through the gap, attack directly, hit with speed,  speed and impact are the soul of present-day warfare.  A fleeing enemy can be utterly destroyed only through pursuit.

 

- Aleksandr Suvorov
---------------------------

Push hard with the bayonet

 

- Aleksandr Suvorov
---------------------------

The ball may lose its way, the bayonet never.  The ball is a fool; the bayonet is a hero.

 
Aleksandr Suvorovs 4 greatest military commanders of all time

Hannibal
Alexander the Great
Julius Caesar
Napoleon Bonaparte
(
Bonaparte was in Egypt when Suvorov fought his battles in Italy.)

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2006 at 13:16
17 Raimondo Montecuccoli 1608 1680 Austria
I know that he fought for Austria, but this great genius was Italian.
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2006 at 13:40
Yes, we are listing there whom he or she served. Or atleast try so.

Travis: Quite impressive, I knew he was great but I thought the less great than you portrait him. Well, now I know. Quite impressive work anyways.


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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2006 at 15:40
Originally posted by DSMyers1

Who is Baji Rao, by the way?  I don't think I have him on the list, or is it another name for one who is on the list?
 
 
i only learned recently about him and have a book order on the way, ASA i get the book, i'll post more on him.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2006 at 08:57
for me M.Kemal Atatrk and Fatih Sultan Mehmet
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  Quote GoldenBlood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2006 at 11:20
[QUOTE=DSMyers1] I have been working on developing a card game using the top 100 generals in history.  To do this, I needed to develop a list of the top 100 generals.  Obviously, this has been done before.  Michael Lee Lanning created a list of "influential" generals, which in his mind apparently meant "Anglo-American."  I really do not like his rankings.  I have seen other good lists, both by Travis Congleton and by Spartan here on this forum.  My list is based upon theirs.

For the purposes of the game, I'd like to have a wide variety of countries and eras represented.  Of course, much of the ranking is subjective anyway...  The card game will hopefully be very educational, and thus I have been developing a database with useful information about the generals in many catagories (probably like Travis Congleton's Portfolios--only less in depth).

I'd like all the comments I can get on the list.  If you see anybody I've left out, tell me why I should put them in.  The list is based primarily on strategic and tactical prowess.

1 Alexander the Great
2 Hannibal Barca
3 Napoleon Bonaparte
4 Temujin (Genghis Khan)
5 Gustavus II Adolphus
6 John Churchill (Duke of Marlborough)
7 Frederick II of Prussia
8 Philip II of Macedon
9 Julius Caesar
10 Henri de La Tour d'Auvergne de Turenne
11 Belisarius
12 Heraclius
13 Gaius Marius
14 Raimondo Montecuccoli
15 Scipio Africanus the Older
16 Eugene of Savoy
17 Subotai
18 Sir Arthur Wellesley (Duke of Wellington)
19 Helmuth Karl Bernhard von Moltke
20 Cyrus the Great
21 Tamerlane
22 Maurice comte de Saxe
23 Aleksandr Suvorov
24 Jan ika
25 Suleiman I
26 Louis Nicholas Davout
27 Erich von Manstein
28 Epaminondas
29 Gonzalo Fernndez de Crdoba (El Gran Capitn)
30 Sebastien Le prestre de Vauban
31 Lucius Cornelius Sulla
32 Winfield Scott
33 Thutmose III
34 Heinz Wilhelm Guderian
35 Louis II de Bourbon, Prince de Cond
36 Leo III the Isaurian
37 Khalid ibn al-Walid
38 Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck
39 Albrecht Wallenstein
40 Takeda Shingen
41 Konstantin Rokossovsky
42 Alexius I Komnenos
43 Maurice of Nassau
44 Tiglath-Pileser III
45 Janos Hunyadi
46 Duke of Parma [Alessandro Farnese]
47 William Joseph Slim
48 Toyotomi Hideyoshi
49 Narses
50 Qi Jiguang
51 Oda Nobunaga
52 Claude-Louis-Hector de Villars
53 Charles XII
54 Flavius Stilicho
55 Oliver Cromwell
56 Aurelian (Lucius Domitius Aurelianus)
57 Jan III Sobieski
58 Nadir Shah
59 Georgy Zhukov
60 Andr Massna
61 Robert Guiscard
62 Robert E. Lee
63 David
64 Erwin Rommel
65 George S. Patton
66 Jean Lannes
67 Charlemagne
68 Selim I
69 Babur
70 Ulysses Simpson Grant
71 Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson
72 Kangxi
73 Johan t'Serclaes, Count of Tilly
74 Lucius Septimius Severus
75 Franois Henri de Montmorency-Bouteville (Luxembourg)
76 Marcus Claudius Marcellus
77 Constantine I 
78 Archduke Charles of Austria
79 Jebe
80 Pyotr Bagration
81 Shaka Zulu
82 William T. Sherman
83 Trajan
84 Scipio Africanus the Younger
85 Edward I
86 Nathan B. Forrest
87 Robert the Bruce
88 William the Conqueror
89 Pan Ch'ao
90 George Washington
91 Richard I
92 James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
93 Nathanael Greene
94 Chandragupta Maurya
95 Saladin 
96 Hernando Cortez
97 Attila the Hun
98 Sun Tzu
99 Joshua
100 Robert Clive


EDIT:  The following is the fourth revision of the above list, after comments through page 9 of this thread:

Ranking Name Born Died Country
1 Alexander the Great 356 323 Macedonia
2 Napoleon Bonaparte 1769 1821 France
3 Temujin (Genghis Khan) 1167 1227 Mongols
4 Hannibal Barca 241 183 Carthage
5 Frederick II of Prussia 1712 1786 Prussia
6 John Churchill (Duke of Marlborough) 1650 1722 England
7 Belisarios 505 565 Byzantines
8 Henri de La Tour d'Auvergne de Turenne 1611 1675 France
9 Gustav II Adolf 1594 1632 Sweden
10 Caius Julius Caesar 100 BC 44 BC Rome
11 Subotai   1248 Mongols
12 Timur 1336 1405 Mongols
13 Philip II of Macedon 382 BC 336 BC Macedonia
14 Jan ika 1370 1424 Bohemia
15 Eugene of Savoy 1663 1736 Austria
16 Heraclius 575 641 Byzantines
17 Raimondo Montecuccoli 1608 1680 Austria
18 Scipio Africanus the Older 237 BC 183 BC Rome
19 Helmuth Karl Bernhard von Moltke 1800 1891 Prussia
20 Gaius Marius 157 BC 86 BC Rome
21 Cyrus the Great 590 BC 529 BC Persia
22 Maurice comte de Saxe 1696 1750 France
23 Aleksandr Suvorov 1729 1800 Russia
24 Suleiman I 1494 1566 Ottomans
25 Louis Nicholas Davout 1770 1823 France
26 Erich von Manstein 1887 1973 Germany
27 Epaminondas 418 BC 362 BC Greece
28 Thutmose III   ca 1540 BC Egypt
29 Heinz Wilhelm Guderian 1888 1954 Germany
30 Lucius Cornelius Sulla 138 BC  78 BC Rome
31 Louis II de Bourbon, Prince de Cond 1621 1686 France
32 Leo III the Isaurian 685 741 Byzantines
33 Khalid ibn al-Walid 584 642 Arabs
34 Hn Xn   196 BC China
35 Sir Arthur Wellesley (Duke of Wellington) 1769 1852 England
36 Gonzalo Fernndez de Crdoba (El Gran Capitn) 1453 1515 Spain
37 Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck 1870 1964 Germany
38 Winfield Scott 1786 1866 United States
39 Albrecht Wallenstein 1583 1634 Austria
40 Takeda Shingen 1521 1573 Japan
41 Nadir Shah 1688 1747 Persia
42 Konstantin Rokossovsky 1896 1968 Russia
43 Alexius I Komnenos 1048 1118 Byzantines
44 Oliver Cromwell 1599 1658 England
45 Maurice of Nassau 1567 1625 Netherlands
46 Tiglath-Pileser III   727 BC Assyria
47 Janos Hunyadi 1387 1456 Hungary
48 Duke of Parma [Alessandro Farnese] 1545 1592 Spain
49 Robert E. Lee 1807 1870 Confederate
50 Yue Fei 1103 1142 China
51 Toyotomi Hideyoshi 1536 1598 Japan
52 Narses 478 573 Byzantines
53 Oda Nobunaga 1534 1582 Japan
54 Aurelian (Lucius Domitius Aurelianus) 214 275 Rome
55 Claude-Louis-Hector de Villars 1653 1734 France
56 William Joseph Slim 1891 1970 England
57 Charles XII 1682 1718 Sweden
58 Babur 1483 1530 Mughal
59 Jan III Sobieski 1629 1696 Poland
60 Georgy Zhukov 1896 1974 Russia
61 Qi Jiguang 1528 1588 China
62 Andr Massna 1758 1817 France
63 Robert Guiscard 1015 1085 Normandy
64 Erwin Rommel 1891 1944 Germany
65 George S. Patton 1885 1945 United States
66 Emperor Taizong of Tang (Lĭ ShMn) 599 649 China
67 Flavius Stilicho 359 408 Rome
68 Jean Lannes 1769 1809 France
69 Charlemagne 742 814 France
70 Selim I 1470 1520 Ottomans
71 Ulysses Simpson Grant 1822 1885 United States
72 Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson 1824 1863 Confederate
73 Kangxi 1654 1722 China
74 Shapur I   272 Persia
75 Johan t'Serclaes, Count of Tilly 1559 1632 Austria
76 Stanisław Ko
Kosova dhe Ilirida, pjese te Dardanise
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2006 at 12:41
It's true! Skandeberg was an impressive commander. He is the national hero in Albania.
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  Quote Shapur II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2006 at 13:48
what about shapur II, who won all his battles except one, and defeated 4 roman emperors. he was shah of iran for 70 years (309 to 379)

he should be in top ten.

the one battle he lost was because he was too sick to command his troops, and died a few days later.

other great iranian generals of the sassanid era include bahram chobin, smbat bagratuni, and shahravaz (i hope i spelled it correctly) among many others.


Edited by Shapur II - 08-Aug-2006 at 13:55
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2006 at 14:55
Well, you can't call him so good... though he fought well indeed. Shapur was normally fighting against an Empire fighting itself.
 
The Top 10 consists of truly able, skilled and good commanders, that have been remembered throughout history and they will be too.
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  Quote Shapur II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2006 at 15:31
shame that people have to make excuses because a western empire was weak than an eastern empire.

sassanid iran had just as much if not more problems than the byzantine empire.

infact, most of the time the sassanids were fighting the byzantines they were also fighting the steppe nomads.

shapur II was just better than anything the roman empire could throw at him, he defeated 4 emperors.

it was because he was good, not because rome was weak.
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  Quote Gundamor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2006 at 15:57
Originally posted by Shapur II

shame that people have to make excuses because a western empire was weak than an eastern empire.sassanid iran had just as much if not more problems than the byzantine empire.infact, most of the time the sassanids were fighting the byzantines they were also fighting the steppe nomads.shapur II was just better than anything the roman empire could throw at him, he defeated 4 emperors.it was because he was good, not because rome was weak.


He conquered rome? Thats news to me. Can you at least give us some battles that he won? If he defeated four roman emperors surely he must have some famous battles where he crushed rome. Julian had no problem with them had he not been killed who knows what would of happened. Was all of romes empire concentrated in that area? His succesor Jovian never even fought yet sued for peace. Its a shame you dont look more beyond being biased.
"An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind"
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  Quote Shapur II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2006 at 16:10
Originally posted by Gundamor



He conquered rome? Thats news to me.


who said he conquered rome?

Originally posted by Gundamor

Can you at least give us some battles that he won? If he defeated four roman emperors surely he must have some famous battles where he crushed rome.


unfortunatly, western historians didnt keep to good of records of their lossesLOL, and sassanid manuscripts have mostly been lost due to the arab invasions.

Originally posted by Gundamor



 Julian had no problem with them had he not been killed who knows what would of happened.


lol, julian won one battle outside of ctesiphon, and like the brilliant general he was he didnt even destroy the main persian army, he just thought that if he went straight to the capitol everything would be over.

what a fool, the persian army just led him deeper into iran, and like a fool julian followed, and the persian army (which was outnumbered by the way), just did as they wanted with the romans.

they massacred the romans, and julian was killed because his officers were tired of him.

thats how julians campaign ended, in utter defeat as Shapur II,  the better general, led julian right into a trap.

Originally posted by Gundamor



Was all of romes empire concentrated in that area? His succesor Jovian never even fought yet sued for peace. Its a shame you dont look more beyond being biased.


jovian wanted peace because the romans didnt want to lose anymore. jovian gave up 5 provinces to iran and also took away its support for armenia.

thats how badly the romans were defeated.

and for your information, all of iran's army wasnt concentrated in that are either. how biased you are to assume such things about iran.
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  Quote Gundamor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2006 at 16:34
Well Julian was not a good military leader yet there is no proof he was ever beaten badly by them. He was vastly outnumbered and way overextended. Also the assasination theory has never been fully proven. I'm not biased at all. I like reading about Shapur II. He was smart and cruel ruler. But he was no great military commander. He couldnt even hold the areas he took. The romans were never shy to write about their own defeats including big ones. Where are they here. Its amusing your excuse is on lost manuscripts. So the entire history in that area is fraud? Did Shapur ever actually lead in the battle and if so which battles? He defeated 4 emperors can you name them? I know 3 and really only Julian was one he might have faced on a battlefield.
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  Quote Shapur II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2006 at 17:00
Originally posted by Gundamor

Well Julian was not a good military leader yet there is no proof he was ever beaten badly by them. He was vastly outnumbered and way overextended.


ok so now you admit that shapur was the better of the two, its funny, before you were saying that julian could have destroyed iran...

also, he invaded with 65,000 men, thats alot, but being the "great leader" he was, he split his force into two, one with 35,000 and one with 30,000.

still he was not outnumbered by any means.

Originally posted by Gundamor



Also the assasination theory has never been fully proven. I'm not biased at all. I like reading about Shapur II. He was smart and cruel ruler. But he was no great military commander. He couldnt even hold the areas he took.


he was a great military commander. neither empire could hold any of the territory they took from each other, but that's not what makes a great commander.

a great commander wins battle, holding territory is up to the empire as a whole, whether the empire had the ability to or not, neither rome/byzantium, nor iran could hold eachother territory for long, that is until Khosrow II Wink

also, the iranian empire was considerable larger than when shapur II took the throne, so obviously that meant that he could hold on to territory.

Originally posted by Gundamor


The romans were never shy to write about their own defeats including big ones. Where are they here. Its amusing your excuse is on lost manuscripts. So the entire history in that area is fraud?


shapur ruled for 70 years, he fought many battles and one all of them except one, what difference does it make if i post the battles or not?

Originally posted by Gundamor



 Did Shapur ever actually lead in the battle and if so which battles? He defeated 4 emperors can you name them? I know 3 and really only Julian was one he might have faced on a battlefield.


i thought you read about Shapur II? yes, he lead all the battles he was involved in.

constantine I, constantius II, Julian, and Jovian (jovian didnt even fight, he just gave up...)

__________________

and dont forget about shahravaz who almost destroyed the byzantine empire...



Edited by Shapur II - 08-Aug-2006 at 17:01
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 06:16
Fortunately, he is no more.
 
This is plain nonsense. And for your information, if the Romans didn't keep good records of their defeats then where have we heard of the Teutoburg Forest, Cannae and Carrhae?
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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 17:23
 Shapur do you have information of bahram chobin battle agaisnt the Gokturks.?Exclamation
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Tsar
Tsar

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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 04:04
Originally posted by BigL

 Shapur do you have information of bahram chobin battle agaisnt the Gokturks.?Exclamation
 
It seems that as Shapur is suspended, he has no information about anything more.
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