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Top 100 Generals

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DSMyers1 View Drop Down
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  Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Top 100 Generals
    Posted: 02-Aug-2006 at 15:35
Wow, good lists all.  This is very interesting.

Travis--I have Timur so high because of popular clamour.

Tongue
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2006 at 15:56
also note, i have no commanders from antiquity because of vague sources. also, preferably they should have at least fought 10+ battles at least. i wouldn't considder anyone with less battles, it could have been just "good luck". no moderns because in modern wars command is more decentralized and individuals can hardly stand out the crowd.
 
if i had to include more generals, i would add Raimondo Montecuccoli and at least one or two Polish Hetmans, preferably those who fought Swedes, Russians and Ottomans for sake of diversity. diversity is actually very important to me because defeating different armies of varying tactic & composition really is a sign of a truely gifted commander.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2006 at 16:17

Here's my top ten:

 

1) Napoleon

2) Alexander the Great

3) Genghis Khan

4) Hannibal Barca

5) G. Iulius Caesar

6) P.C. Scipio Africanus

7) John Churchill

8) Tamerlane

9) Philip II of Macedon

10) Subotai

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  Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2006 at 16:53
Originally posted by Zimisce

Here's my top ten:

 

1) Napoleon

2) Alexander the Great

3) Genghis Khan

4) Hannibal Barca

5) G. Iulius Caesar

6) P.C. Scipio Africanus

7) John Churchill

8) Tamerlane

9) Philip II of Macedon

10) Subotai



Good list.  You don't think Frederick the Great or Gustavus Adolphus makes it?  Tamerlane might be a little questionable.  We just don't know a whole lot about his actual strategy or tactics....
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2006 at 17:05

actually we do, where is this wrong notion comign from? but yeah, good list apart from missing Frederick II.

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  Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2006 at 17:17
Originally posted by Temujin

actually we do, where is this wrong notion comign from? but yeah, good list apart from missing Frederick II.



I guess I meant "I" don't know much...
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  Quote Travis Congleton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2006 at 17:42
Not too sure about Nurhaci.  Given a garrison in 1582, it took him 34 years to unite the Nuchen tribes.  He invaded China [Ming Dynasty] two years later and defeated the main Ming army.  However, he did need Mongolian assistance to take Shenyang and Liaoyang (1621).  Five years later, he faces another Ming army, led by Yuanchonghuan.  Yuanchonghuan crushed Nurhaci's army and Nurhaci was mortally wounded.  I think Han Xin or Yue Fei would be two excellent choices.

NOTE: He cleverly devised the Eight Banner System, which shows his nack for warfare developments, but your listing is more based on numbers against; not innovations in warfare.


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  Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2006 at 18:06
Originally posted by Travis Congleton

Not too sure about Nurhaci.  Given a garrison in 1582, it took him 34 years to unite the Nuchen tribes.  He invaded China [Ming Dynasty] two years later and defeated the main Ming army.  However, he did need Mongolian assistance to take Shenyang and Liaoyang (1621).  Five years later, he faces another Ming army, led by Yuanchonghuan.  Yuanchonghuan crushed Nurhaci's army and Nurhaci was mortally wounded.  I think Han Xin or Yue Fei would be two excellent choices.

NOTE: He cleverly devised the Eight Banner System, which shows his nack for warfare developments, but your listing is more based on numbers against; not innovations in warfare.




I truly had never heard of Nurhaci until this thread--my brother told me he knew about him, but not as a great general.  I only know what people tell me--I haven't seen him in any books.
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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2006 at 21:17
Nurhaci, supposedly a Great Martial arts master. Managed to fight his way to power in a tribal structure like Manchuria.Yes it too many years but this is becasue he had to fight so many battles, just like Genghis khan.
 
Nurhaci was defeated and killed attacking a Chinese City.The chinese won because they had good cannons,and he was shot by cannonfire.
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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2006 at 23:00
I wonder how many of these 100 generals didn't lose any battle. 
Maybe it will be more honest, if we put these generals who didn't lose any battle above these ones who lost? Napoleon for example lost few battles and finally lost everything. So, why he is so high? And other question - why there is Napoleon on the list while there is no Adolf Hitler? Both conquered almost whole Europe and both finally lost everything.  
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 06:08
Well, it's difficult to make a good list... Tamerlane was a greater conqueror than Philip II of Macedon: he defeated great armies, his strategy was really good.
 
I can't understand why Scipio Africanus is so underrated. He was innovative (he created new tactics for hastati, principes and triarii), he never lost a battle (also against Hannibal!), his strategy was simply amazing.  In my opinion, he always should be in a top ten of great commanders.
 
Yeah, Frederick the Great could be 10th.
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  Quote Travis Congleton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 07:16
ataman: "Napoleon for example lost few battles and finally lost everything. So, why he is so high? And other question - why there is Napoleon on the list while there is no Adolf Hitler? Both conquered almost whole Europe and both finally lost everything."
==============================
It depends on the components of why you rate them.  I did it from the aspect of what we have learned from them in terms of warfare (strategically, tactically, logisticallly, famous battles, tough opponents, etc...).

To be considered, a true commander should be on the field or NEAR the army.  Not in some bunker giving orders.

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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 08:35

Myers gets a shock when he sees mine. I literally kicked Gustav Adolf out of any competition.... lol... 'I have Epameinondas almost equal to Gustav Adolf.

And my lists are based moreover on personal feelings how they perfromed than the actual facts although the facts are considered highly important so I might have some arguments about the some first persons...
 
And forgive me of including de Tolly but he was able and his main reason for failure was that Russians didn't like him (being of Scottish descent).
 
Finished the list from 55-100 All, moments ago.
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  Quote XueKaiYuan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 09:36
Gao Xian Zhi, An Lu Shan, Yue Fei, Wen Tian Xiang. I'm still thinking of others. Look up on these first. I highly recommend Yue Fei though.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLLLLLLOOOLLL!!!
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  Quote XueKaiYuan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 09:49
Also try Liu che. Emperor Wu of Han. I'm not sure if he can be called a general but hs contributions to conquering of the western Xiong Nu tribes in northern Tibet (Kunlun mountains) was quite remarkable.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLLLLLLOOOLLL!!!
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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 09:53
Originally posted by XueKaiYuan

I highly recommend Yue Fei though.
 
from Wikipedia:
 
'Military Record
Yue Fei did not join the army until 1122, but he quickly rose through the ranks to become a general in only six years. As a valiant and tactically astute general, Yue Fei led many successful campaigns against the forces of the Jin Dynasty. Taking advantage of the difficulties which his opponents' cavalry experienced in the hilly terrain of Southern China, he was able to score victories although his troops were frequently outnumbered. His forces succeeded in regaining territory south of the Yangtze and Huai Rivers. The enemies even said "撼山易,撼岳家军难", meaning it was easy to push over a mountain, but difficult to push over Yue's army. He was also known for his strict discipline of his legions, forbidding them to pillage, even when facing the harshest of conditions. In all, Yue Fei participated in 126 battles and won them all.'
 
And this is a commander who I can admire. XueKaiYuan, can you write something about the most famous/interesting battles of Yue Fei? I'd like to learn more about him.


Edited by ataman - 03-Aug-2006 at 09:53
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 09:53
He has already Yue Fei.
 
R. Name Born Died Country
1   Alexander the Great 356 323 Macedonia
2   Napoleon Bonaparte 1769 1821 France
3   Genghis Khan 1167 1227 Mongols
4   John Churchill, the Duke of Marlborough 1650 1722 England
5   Friedrich II the Great 1712 1786 Prussia
6   Hannibal Barca 241 183 Carthage
7   Henri de La Tour d'Auvergne de Turenne 1611 1675 France
8   Aleksandr Suvorov 1729 1800 Russia
9   Eugene of Savoy 1663 1736 Austria
10   Helmuth Karl Bernhard von Moltke 1800 1891 Prussia
11   Timur Lenkur 1336 1405 Turks
12   Gaius Julius Caesar 100 BC 44 BC Rome
13   Subotai 1248 Mongols
14   Belisarios 505 565 Eastern Rome
15   Maurice of Nassau 1567 1625 Netherlands
16   Louis II de Bourbon, Prince de Cond 1621 1686 France
17   Duke of Parma 1545 1592 Spain
18   Jan Siska 1370 1424 Bohemia
19   Raimondo Montecuccoli 1608 1680 Austria
20   Maurice, Comte de Saxe 1696 1750 France
21   Scipio Africanus the Older 237 BC 183 BC Rome
22   Tokugawa Ieyasu 1543 1616 Japan
23   Herakleios 575 641 Eastern Rome
24   Takeda Shingen 1521 1573 Japan
25   Heinz Wilhelm Guderian 1888 1954 Germany
26   Epameinondas 418 BC 362 BC Greece
27   Louis Nicholas Davout 1770 1823 France
28   Traianus 53 117 Rome
29   Gustav II Adolf 1594 1632 Sweden
30   Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck 1870 1964 Germany
31   Winfield Scott 1786 1866 United States
32   Konstantin Rokossovsky 1896 1968 Russia
33   Isaak I Komnenos 1093 1152 Eastern Rome
34   Ashoka 304 BC 232 BC Maurya Empire
35   Minamoto no Yoritomo 1147 1199 Japan
36   Mihhail Dmitrievich Skobelev 1843 1882 Russia
37   Sir Arthur Wellesley, the Duke of Wellington 1769 1852 England
38   Walter von Plettenberg 1535 Livonian Order
39   Yue Fei 1103 1142 China
40   Assurbanipal 685 BC 627 BC Assyria
41   Janus Hunyadi 1387 1456 Hungary
42   Gaius Marius 157 BC 86 BC Rome
43   Hernan Cortez 1485 1547 Spain
44   Philippos II 382 BC 336 BC Macedonia
45   Karl X Gustav 1622 1660 Sweden
46   Khalid ibn al-Walid 584 642 Arabs
47   Claude-Louis-Hector de Villars 1653 1734 France
48   Ulysses Simpson Grant 1822 1885 United States
49   Jan III Sobieski 1629 1696 Poland
50   Toyotomi Hideyoshi 1536 1598 Japan
51   Lord Montgomery of Alamein 1887 1976 UK
52   Erwin Rommel 1891 1944 Germany
53   Mikhail Illarionovich Golenishchev-Kutuzov 1745 1813 Russia
54   Stanislaw Koniecpolski 1590 1646 Poland
55   Oda Nobunaga 1534 1582 Japan
56   Robert E. Lee 1807 1870 Confederate
57   Suleyman I 1494 1566 Ottomans
58   Kyros II the Great 590 BC 529 BC Persia
59   Albrecht Wallenstein 1583 1634 Austria
60   Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson 1824 1863 Confederate
61   Selim I 1470 1520 Ottomans
62   Gonzalo Fernįndez de Crdoba (El Gran Capitįn) 1453 1515 Spain
63   Georgy Zhukov 1896 1974 Ru
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  Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 10:04
Really nice list there.

May I ask why you have Traianus so high?  What exactly did he do?  At his time, the Romans were at the height of their power, so he couldn't have had any competition with anything like equal skill, discipline, etc.  He defeated Dacia, but I point out Dacia isn't exactly an equal of Rome at that time.  He defeated Parthia, which is a feat, but still not exactly the equal of Rome, military wise or by any other measure.


Edited by DSMyers1 - 03-Aug-2006 at 10:05
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 10:07
But exactly for these purposes, I thought of Hadrian but then I remembered some aspects that make Hadrian my favourite emperor: Traian... without Traian, Hadrian would never have become emperor and he basically laid down the path to later conquests but it is hard to explain.
 
What about others? I think I have Francois I a little high, he did some things but nothing much.
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  Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 10:23
Originally posted by rider

But exactly for these purposes, I thought of Hadrian but then I remembered some aspects that make Hadrian my favourite emperor: Traian... without Traian, Hadrian would never have become emperor and he basically laid down the path to later conquests but it is hard to explain.
 
What about others? I think I have Francois I a little high, he did some things but nothing much.


Let's see... Lord Montgomery of Alamein.  What is he doing up so high?   He performed well in the desert, but Market Garden was a disaster.

I don't have much time to look this over--got to work on the conclusion of my thesis.
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