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A former Premier of Macedonia: I am a bul
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Mortaza 
Tsar 
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
 Topic: A former Premier of Macedonia: I am a bulPosted: 15-Jan-2007 at 03:11 |
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Finally to close this issue and the Turkish efforts to make Turkish the Muslim minority in the last pseudo-Mufte elections in Greece had vote only 9.554 people !!!
A number that represent how many are the Turks in Greece and a sourse not to much Greek!!!!!
You just add the forget, election made mosques. So no women, no child, no men(who dont go mosque at that day.) You should add this informations too.
Very good Akrita .
the most interesting is the way this "election" happen.It was happen by rising their hand in the mosques of W.T.. Sorry, where should they choose their religious leader? at disco or schools? Pls be serious. It is disgusting that you are trying to show these people as fanatic. Buldog what I had to say for this issue , just I said it.
Just a remark as about the Muslim Romas. They accuse the American diplomats in Greece for unilateral thesis as about the "supposings violations" to the Turks of Thrace by forgoting the Turkish pressures to them.
This is still absurd, It is your country. It is greece, how can Turkey suppress minority at greece. Only country which can suppress greece minority is again greece. Let be serious. It is ridiculus nothing more. This justification is absurd..
Turkey suppress minority of greece(absurd, and Infact impossible), so greece suppress minority too. I dont think any guy who have a mind accept this fairy tale.
Is not strange to you a American diplomat or the Turkish officials to speak for minorities issues in a country that according the Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU) is in an Ranking 22nd among surveyed 165 countries and classified as a "full democracy?
Well, You still did not show me any organization which have a word "Turkish".(Infact, I showed you an organization which is fighting for this word last 20 year.) So please, dont waste our time with unrelated subjects like your economy.
Of course and agree for the growing FYROMian nationalism.And as you know Balkans suffered a lot because of this. In my opinion is not the problem the Slavmacedonians as people. But theirs politician.After Gligorov death the several political parties in FYROM compete in an power political race.
I am sure also that in the future Bulgaria and Greece will coorporate more closely in order to square up the FYROMian nationalism.
Absolutely not, let them have their nation and nationality. Macedonians jobs are their job. Absolutely, nor bulgarian neither greece have any right for interfere their jobs..
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konstantinius
General 
Joined: 22-Aug-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 762 |
Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 03:39 |
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Look here, the whole point is that Ankara are meddling in the affairs of the WT Muslims in order to somehow exercise political pressure on the goverment of greece within the general jostle in the Aegean. It doesn't mean that they (Ankara) are outrightly oppressing anyone. Now, of course I don't have a written source to prove this to you and you can dismiss it as another greek paranoia. But, and I believe that a lot of greeks feel that way, there is a feeling of malpractice and ill-will that taints the relationship of the two countries in general.
And the anti-Americanism of the Greek public is due to the fact that Washington do not miss a single opportunity to use Greko-Turkish agenda to apply their own pressure on the Greek side. It doesn't mean that Turkey is directly responsible for that. But that'show things are interpreted and that forges the public opinion. |
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" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."
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akritas
Chieftain 
Hegemom Joined: 17-Sep-2005 Location: Greek Macedonia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1460 |
Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 04:05 |
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Mortaza I am try to focus in the meaning of the thread, but you want to make Minority Issue. So......
The link was clear.The Greek Muslims avoided to play the known Turkish political games.The abstention was clear not only from the Pomaks and Roma but also and from the Turks.
The hypocrite Turkish goverment pretend for the mufti issue when is known in Turkey itself, the Mufti is appointed by the Prefect according to the latters judgement and not elected.
Why should Greece follow diffrent election system ?
Greece never condemnated for the minority issues as Turkey.Its better to read better the EIU report as about the Survey rules.Somewhere here there is a opened thread.
.......by burning flags, beat people and destroy monuments ?
this is a common practice in countries that produce nationalism like FYROM. I am wander if this also happen and in your State ?
Edited by akritas - 15-Jan-2007 at 04:06 |
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Antioxos
Consul 
Joined: 26-Apr-2006 Location: Hellas Online Status: Offline Posts: 340 |
Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 04:07 |
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.
The intresting is the way "the rising of their hand" and not that happen in mosques
pls if you dont understand something ask me it ll be my pleasure to explain you everything.
They are not fanatic at all my fellow Mortaza ,They are very peacefull and very good people whatever are trying the "democrats" of Ancara to isolate them from the greek society.
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akritas
Chieftain
Hegemom Joined: 17-Sep-2005 Location: Greek Macedonia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1460 |
Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 04:28 |
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One more important think as about how predictable are the Turkish political actions as about the raising of the supposing minority issue in Greek Thrace.
Below is an electronic article of a Greek newspapaer in Xante city.
date..15 Dec 2006
.......Η αλληλουχία των γεγονότων: εκλογή ψευδομουφτή Ξάνθης, ειδική συνεδρίαση για την μειονότητα της Θράκης στην τουρκική εθνοσυνέλευση και περιοδεία του υπουργού Εξωτερικών της Τουρκίας στη Θράκη δεν μπορεί να εκληφθεί ως τυχαία, ενώ πολιτικοί αναλυτές θεωρούν ότι το μειονοτικό ζήτημα της Θράκης θα παίξει πολύ στις τουρκικές εκλογές ......
.......The concatenation of events: ---pseudo-moufte Elections in Xanthe-DONE --- special meeting as about the minority of --- tour of the --- while political analysts consider that the "minoritary question of " so we know what are will be the next Turkish steps as about the Minority issue.Of course the abstention of the Greek muslims in the guided from Turkey pseudo-elections will be create problem on this. May be the US Dipolmats will help you on this.......
Mortaza remember this post in the future!!!!
Edited by akritas - 15-Jan-2007 at 04:55 |
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Mortaza
Tsar
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 06:30 |
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The link was clear.The Greek Muslims avoided to play the known Turkish political games.The abstention was clear not only from the Pomaks and Roma but also and from the Turks.
abstention? haha, I am totally thinking otherwise. As I said before, women, childs, some men(who is not religious), elder ext did not come mosque, but still 10.000 vote.
The hypocrite Turkish goverment pretend for the mufti issue when is known in Turkey itself, the Mufti is appointed by the Prefect according to the latters judgement and not elected.
Why should Greece follow diffrent election system ?
Compare it with patriatch(Not workers of Turkey). We are not interesting with your churchs of greece.
Anyway, do greece also choose religious leader of christians?(I am waiting for answer.)
Greece never condemnated for the minority issues as Turkey.Its better to read better the EIU report as about the Survey rules.Somewhere here there is a opened thread.
But, Greece is accused. Turkey mistakes wont help you much.
.......by burning flags, beat people and destroy monuments ?
this is a common practice in countries that produce nationalism like FYROM. I am wander if this also happen and in your State ?
Ah please, I remember greeks burned turkish flags too. beat people yes. (Remember last cyprus issue) Destroy monument? Sorry but macedonia have much more ottoman manument than greece.
Why dont you say your real problem? Problem is they are macedons. You should accept this my friend, It would be realy to difficult to persuade macedons.
so we know what are will be the next Turkish steps as about the Minority issue.Of course the abstention of the Greek muslims in the guided from Turkey pseudo-elections will be create problem on this. May be the US Dipolmats will help you on this.......
again nonsense, didnt greece authorites talk with patriatch? I dont think it is not a rare thing.
Also priminester of Turkey went W.T. before, and he said to Turks, greece is your country and you should serve it. Sorry I am not seeing any nationalism at this.
They are not fanatic at all my fellow Mortaza ,They are very peacefull and very good people whatever are trying the "democrats" of Ancara to isolate them from the greek society.
how typical, accuse ankara for your own guilt. It is not ankara which created a nationalist greek people. |
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Antioxos
Consul
Joined: 26-Apr-2006 Location: Hellas Online Status: Offline Posts: 340 |
Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 07:35 |
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This dum Greek state is quilty for everything!
Where did you found nationalism in Greece the latest years ?
Personally i criticize the Greek state a lot but on this subject Ancara involves in internal Greek cases to serve their nationalist strategic goals.
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Mortaza
Tsar
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 07:46 |
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This dum Greek state is quilty for everything!
Absolutely not, but If It has not ability to integrate Turkish minority, It is greece guilt not Turkish one.
Where did you found nationalism in Greece the latest years ?
should I remind you stupidy about statue of Ataturk and venizelos.
Personally i criticize the Greek state a lot but on this subject Ancara involves in internal Greek cases to serve their nationalist strategic goals.
Bah, Ankara is not working over this job. Infact Ankara is ignoring minority problems at greece. She is showing less than enough interest. Like greece interest over patriatch. |
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akritas
Chieftain
Hegemom Joined: 17-Sep-2005 Location: Greek Macedonia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1460 |
Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 08:10 |
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of cource was adsention.May be the better words is disdain.
Mortaza as clever Turkm you forget something important to mention my friend,
The numbers of the mosques in Greek Thrace.
The Tottaly number of mosques in Thrace are 375 according your American political allies as about this issue.
Of course you know how many mosques put election boxes? only in 83!!!!!!
Why avoid the others?
Why avoid to answer me as about the Mufti procedure and go in other subject ?.
In Greece for your information the procedure of the Orthodoxe Archibishop have applied since 1852.Why should I change it ?
And I repeat again....in Turkey itself, the Mufti is appointed by the Prefect according to the latters judgement and not elected.
Why should Greece follow diffrent election system ?
It should be noted that from 1923 until 1990 the Muftis were appointed by the Prefect without anyone ever having protested or contested the procedure of appointment from the Turkish or American side.
And suddenly this issue raised from you.But nobody any more give any attention in that from the Greek Muslims , except of course of 9.544 male Turks!!!
To accused in what ? the Greek minority after the Turkish "behaviours" against it reduce from 120.000 to 3.000.
The Muslim minority in Greece was 86.000 and now is 110.000 approximately.
The above comparison show clearly who pursuit ethnical minorities.
I never deny that there are also Greeks nationalists(and anarchists) that burns foreign flags.The FYROM problem is that in the whole system is promote nationalism and interretism.And the last act to rename the Skopje Airport to Alexander the Great show clearly this nationalist behavour.
......and in case that you forgot in Greek Civil war at Macedonia region these Slavs , with the Communist help tried to annexed the region.
Edited by akritas - 15-Jan-2007 at 08:14 |
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Antioxos
Consul
Joined: 26-Apr-2006 Location: Hellas Online Status: Offline Posts: 340 |
Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 08:18 |
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Personally i dont know this incident. But this the way that you count nationalism ?I count nationalism from the political parties that exist in Greece and how many votes take.Do i have to remind you how many votes take the Grey Wolfes in Turkey?
Finally i think Akritas and I we speak with proves we dont say something that we cannot prove it.
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Mortaza
Tsar
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 09:05 |
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Of course you know how many mosques put election boxes? only in 83!!!!!!
Why avoid the others?
10.000 is still much. Why dont you look it like, It is 10.000 family?
Why avoid to answer me as about the Mufti procedure and go in other subject ?.
I dont, they were choosen by diyanet, so state, but that has no relation with minority. Compare it with partriatch. Also Turkey is a muslim majority country, so people indirectly choose their religious leader. When It comes to greece, christian greeks choose leaders of muslim. See your point?
In Greece for your information the procedure of the Orthodoxe Archibishop have applied since 1852.Why should I change it ?
This only show double standart. why do you treat muslims different than christians?
And suddenly this issue raised from you.But nobody any more give any attention in that from the Greek Muslims , except of course of 9.544 male Turks!!!
Suddenly is not true, these 9.544 males have their wifes and childs. I should also add, only turks who is near a mosque can got these voting. Or do you think students who educate at athen also go these mosques? Please, this is realy a cheap game.
To accused in what ? the Greek minority after the Turkish "behaviours" against it reduce from 120.000 to 3.000.
The Muslim minority in Greece was 86.000 and now is 110.000 approximately.
The above comparison show clearly who pursuit ethnical minorities.
Still, this does not make greece any innocent. do it? Also If turks survived at greece, this does not mean much. Remember armenians survived at istanbul too. It is greeks who went to greece. I should add also greeks did not treated worse than armenians. I think 1 million german left to russia and went to germany(after fall of USSR), is this mean ethnic cleansing?
I never deny that there are also Greeks nationalists(and anarchists) that burns foreign flags.The FYROM problem is that in the whole system is promote nationalism and interretism
Ah to much different than greece.
after all, It is macedons who have good population seen at stormfront, not macedons.
......and in case that you forgot in Greek Civil war at Macedonia region these Slavs , with the Communist help tried to annexed the region.
This mean absolutely nothing. Should I fear for izmir or imroz ?
Personally i dont know this incident. But this the way that you count nationalism ?I count nationalism from the political parties that exist in Greece and how many votes take.Do i have to remind you how many votes take the Grey Wolfes in Turkey?
do your nationalist parties have turks inside of it?
MHP have a lot kurd and arab, and some times at their cities, these arabs or kurds talk their own langauge. So these grey wolfes are a little different than your wolfes.
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akritas
Chieftain
Hegemom Joined: 17-Sep-2005 Location: Greek Macedonia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1460 |
Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 09:34 |
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I dont know, you said it, actually a Turkish organization announced this number. Why I must beileved them ? why this number was been less from the given ? disdain is obvious
Consider that only in 83 mosques at 375 total is a very small number.
According your Laws NO. Your State choose the religion leader as doing the Greek since 1923 after Kemal-Venizelos agreement.
Because in 90s wake up and put this as supposing issue(forget it of course kemal signature), this not mean that Greece will catch the bite. Actually as I said in the last elections clearly show that no-body cares for the pseudo-moufte.
Greek Church, as any Orthodox church in the world, follow the Ecumenical Patriarch rules.
You are the one that not honor Kemal signature or Treuties, not Greece.Is obvious that.
Is better to not put terms like "ethnical cleasing" in our debate as also to not bring other international issue that not consern this one.
Greece make at the past big mistakes, specially with the Pomak muslims when consider them as Turks .In the last 20 years there was change and the results is obvious in the region at the present.
Any way the numbers speak by own.
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Antioxos
Consul
Joined: 26-Apr-2006 Location: Hellas Online Status: Offline Posts: 340 |
Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 09:40 |
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The problem is that you give us your personal estimation not proves.
Ilhan Ahmet the deputy of New democracy
http://www.ilhanahmet.com/
Gull Kara Hasan (She is a Pomak)in the Socialist Party Mustafa Mustafa in Sinaspismos the leftist party.
If you want i can find more Turks Pomaks or Roma inside the parties.
Further your personal estimation is good to support your posts with proves .
In Greece doesnt exist serious nationalistic party (like Grey Wolfes that take 17% of the votes.)
Edited by Antioxos - 15-Jan-2007 at 09:44 |
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akritas
Chieftain
Hegemom Joined: 17-Sep-2005 Location: Greek Macedonia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1460 |
Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 09:40 |
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Everything....this people learn in theirs schools that FYROM is a divided land.
This a funtamental term of the nationalism.
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Mortaza
Tsar
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 10:02 |
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I dont know, you said it, actually a Turkish organization announced this number. Why I must beileved them ? why this number was been less from the given ? disdain is obvious
Consider that only in 83 mosques at 375 total is a very small number.
hmm, you mean election happened only at 83 mosques? why? who is ruling this mosques? Muftu choosen by greece? So
According your Laws NO.
er, there is not any law that say Turkey is not muslim majority country. It says Turkey is a secular country.
Your State choose the religion leader as doing the Greek since 1923 after Kemal-Venizelos agreement.
I think, that agreement about Turkish minority goes before kemal-venizelos. It should be related with balkan war.(Not remember much.)
Actually as I said in the last elections clearly show that no-body cares for the pseudo-moufte.
10.000 family between 110.000 population? I think some cares.Also I should remind you, this is not an election that show If Turkish minority prefer to choose their leader or not.
And You just said, voting happened only 83 mosque. Not all mosque. Maybe If voting happened all mosque, we would have bigger number than 10.000.
Greek Church, as any Orthodox church in the world, follow the Ecumenical Patriarch rules.
You are the one that not honor Kemal signature or Treuties, not Greece.Is obvious that.
You mean? Ecumenism is not accepted by that treatry.
The problem is that you give us your personal estimation not proves.
You mean, You want some kurdish politician names? At goverment or at parties.(I dont think, we will realy search for it. Our interior minister is kurd).
Also I am not talking leftist parties. I am trying to show MHP is not a fasist party. That grey wolfes consist a lot of different ethnics like Turkey.(Including turks, kurds, albanians, zazas, ext.)
Everything....this people learn in theirs schools that FYROM is a divided land.
so what about greeks, I am sure they also learn that izmir and istanbul are occupied by turks. If they dont make any crime, They are innocent. I dont think we should evaluate these macedons different than other nations.(Turks, greeks, serbs, bulgarian ext.) |
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akritas
Chieftain
Hegemom Joined: 17-Sep-2005 Location: Greek Macedonia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1460 |
Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 10:36 |
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You are wrong.In Greek schools we dont learn for divided or annexated land.............. in FYROM definetly.
What about yours schools?
Do you read that anyone forbidden the entrance in other mosques? NO
and if they control from the lagal mufte.....Xanthi and Komotene are small areas, with new International road(Egnatia). so there is not any transportaion problem.
Greece annexated the Eastern Thrace in 1923, officially the Greek troops entered in 1917.Before were the Bulgarians
Check the Lausaune Treuty in articles 37-45
I dont get you ?  be more specific |
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Mortaza
Tsar
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 11:04 |
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You are wrong.In Greek schools we dont learn for divided or annexated land.............. in FYROM definetly.
What about yours schools?
Not much expansionism, but castle mentality. Our borders are holy and should not change. So why do you a lot greek cry for taking istanbul back? I dont think greeks are better than macedons. (But maybe reason is that I am a Turk.)
Do you read that anyone forbidden the entrance in other mosques? NO
and if they control from the lagal mufte.....Xanthi and Komotene are small areas, with new International road(Egnatia). so there is not any transportaion problem.
You are right, but this only increase cost. So It was not totally a free election.
Greece annexated the Eastern Thrace in 1923, officially the Greek troops entered in 1917.Before were the Bulgarians
Check the Lausaune Treuty in articles 37-45
I know, but I think agreement was about muslim minority(Not specially WT minority.) But It is possible that I am making some mistake too.
I dont get you ?
 be more specificI mean acording to Lausaune Treuty , patriatch has not ecumenism. |
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akritas
Chieftain
Hegemom Joined: 17-Sep-2005 Location: Greek Macedonia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1460 |
Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 11:27 |
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Greeks are realistic. Nationalism in the Greece cost a lot at the past and we took our lessons.
Is obvious the new nations at the Balkans (and some old of course) , nationalism is deep inside on them.
Many Greek visit the Turkey as tourist and the only that they see is the Greek artifacts the present from the Turks quides as Roman!!!
Do you see any complain from the Turkish goverment or Human Rights watch ?
Greece is a free country.Actually the photo that present the members of the Turkish minority appeared them not so happy. I am curious why?
Below you can read the specific articles that consern the minorities(Greek and Muslim as it said)
Where mention that ?
Edited by akritas - 15-Jan-2007 at 11:29 |
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Anton
Caliph 
Joined: 23-Jun-2006 Location: Bulgaria Online Status: Offline Posts: 2888 |
Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 19:33 |
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No, I do not agree with you, but I got your point of view. I hope you got mine as well and by that our positions became closer.
Cheers.
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Patrinos
Baron 
Joined: 05-Sep-2006 Location: Moreas Online Status: Offline Posts: 473 |
Posted: 16-Jan-2007 at 07:06 |
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Mortaza where exactly is the problem if Turkey recognises the Ecumenism of the Patriarch?
This obsession of yours is unmeaning... |
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"Hellenes are crazy but they have a wise God"
Kolokotronis |
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