A former Premier of Macedonia: I am a bul

Originally posted by Akritas According the international Treauties is a Muslim minority that composed of Turks,Pomaks and Roma

So - one minority - three ethnic groups... Interesting.

i don't want to be rude but i think that Mortaza has hijacked this thread..
Mortaza look at the title of the thread
This thread started from the FYROM issue, passed through the slavophones in Greece and ended up at the pogrom of 1955


Edited by nikodemos - 13-Jan-2007 at 17:41

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Edited by nikodemos - 13-Jan-2007 at 18:00

Guys please don't continue the discussion about the Turkish minority in Greece (or other Greek-Turkish issues) here. Open a new thread or post in an existing relevant one.
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Originally posted by Anton As Bulgarian minority, Patrinos,  I consider those people that have Bulgarian self-identity and which number is underestimated by Greek officials."

Oh give as the real number then, dear Anton. Besides, AFAIK the vocal Slavophone minority in Greece says they are "Macedonians".

The difference between "slavophones" in Greece and Karakachani in Bulgaria is that Bulgaria recognizes Karakachani, help them to identify themselves and do not oppose Greece to keep contacts with them. Nobody writes weird graffities on their vilages and they do not affraid to speak their own language outdoors. Nobody call them "indoeuropeophones bulgarians" but they are recognized as Greek minority. Nobody will oppose building of their church if they wish to build one. Whereas situation with "slavophones" is completely different. Watch bg_turks movie about it.

You don't like as calling them "Slavophones". Then tell me how we should call them. As for bg_turk's movie, it's in Bulgarian so we can't understand it and therefore cannot judge it. However, from what you said, they say in the movie that "Bulgarians" in Greece are "afraid to speak their own language outdoors". So I ask you, why are they afraid? What will happen to them if they speak Bulgarian?

Xristar, tell me why all, I mean ALL Greeks that I met (most of them I respect as clever and educated people) repeate the same arguments in absolutely the same words and phrases? Where did you study those arguments? At school?

You mean Greeks that you met in real life or here at the forum?
In any case, which are those "arguments in absolutely same words and phrases" that "ALL Greeks" repeat to you and what is wrong with those arguments?
If you mean the argument that the "Macedonian" party gets few votes, no we don't learn it at school


Edited by Neoptolemos - 13-Jan-2007 at 18:06

OK, let me recap the argument about the Muslim minority in WT the way I see it, please correct me if I'm wrong:
Firstly, the Muslim minority in Thrace is not exclusively Turkish; it includes Pomaks and Roma as well. For that reason it is classified as a "religious" minority in international treaties, not 'ethnic", i.e. Turkish. This said minority has some rights: schools, religious institutions, parliamentary representation.
So, the argument that Mortaza is mostly championing is that they're not allowed to use the actual word "turk" in anything they do, it took Ilhan Ahmat's Union 20 years of legal battles to be able to use "Turkic' on their banner. The argument is not about  oppression of the Muslim minority in general, but the Turkish element within it in particular.

Now, let's look at the relations between the two countries (Greece and Turkey). Let me not repeat all the "bumps" that have been  mentioned before and thus tire the reader. It will suffice to say that in the eyes of most Greeks (and probably the Greek goverments as well), Turkey represents the one tangible threat in the area today. There has been Cyprus; 1955; the non-recognition of the status qvo in the Aegean on the part of Turkey and the consequent statement of casus belli. Ancara's attempts to appear as the "protector" and regulator of all Muslims in Thrace and thus interfere in internal affairs. Under these circumstances how can Greece ever recognize anything "Turkic"? It will immediately become a pawn in Ankara's attempts to further their plans in the area. Can Greece have assurances that recognition of Turkish minority will not be used by Ankara to interfere in internal Greek affairs? Even if those assurances were granted can we trust the Turkish goverment considering their history of aggression and militarism? This is the core of the argument: under the present situation in the Aegean and the relations of the two countries Greece CANNOT recognize a Turkish  minority, even if ALL the Muslims in WT were Turks, because this would compromize Greece's NATIONAL INTEREST and survivability. The condition and status of Greko-Turkish Muslims in Thrace can and will be part of a PACKAGE that addresses the TOTALITY of the relations between the two countries, including, of course, Cyprus: for how can Greece negotiate status for Muslims in Thrace when Turkey is so bent on dichotomizing the island that she'll even sacrifice her EU chances in order to "push" for a "TRNC"? Or when everything that has to do with ancient Greek past of Anatolia is transcribed as "Ionian" in order not to even use the word"Greek"? Yet on the other hand Ankara is "screaming" about the Turks in Greek Thrace!!

Personally I bear no grudges against the Turkish people. I love the food, the climate is the same, the topography (of the coast), is the same, the people look the same. My greek friends who have travelled to Turkey received a totally different treatment (with the good meaning of the term) as soon as the locals found out that they were "Yunan". In Izmir, they opened up abank on Sunday (!!) after the intervention of two motorcycle cops so my friend Giorgos could cash his traveller's checks. I don't think they would've done this for, say, a German.  I want to travel to turkey myself to see all the monuments and the ancient battlefields  and I bet you that i'll feel more at home there than say Stockholm or Copenhagen. I believe that, just like me, most Greeks "buried the hatchet" long time ago. We mumble and grumble about cyprus, the violations of the FIR etc. But inately there's no hate or aggression on our part. But there are legitimate concerns about safety and survival and it is those that mostly affect the status of the Muslims in thrace as well.

Sorry Neoptolemos, you guys posted a bunch of stuff in the time it took me to type this. OK, no more about Thrace on this thread that as you correctly pointed out is veering off topic. Cheers.





Edited by konstantinius - 13-Jan-2007 at 19:04

I don't know their number and probably nobody knows. But it is not 10-50-80 for sure. If I count my relatives, I will probably find this "10-50-80" only in Zagorichane.

Originally posted by Bulldog There is some SERIOUS paranoia going on. Damn right there's paranoia going on. To be more precise there's a HISTORY of paranoia going on.   Where is the evidence of this secret covert Turkish plan? when have they gone into Greece and forced the Pomaks and Roma to say there Turks? this is nothing but a figment of the imagination and a pretty extravagent theory.   Infact, I've never heard of such an issue untill today which leads me to think why it's even being brought up? Do the Roma and Pomak associate themselves as Turks or feel closer to Turks is this the problem? what exactly is the issue and what proof is there that Turkey is somehow in Greece Turkifying people. The issue is that Ankara appears to speak for ALL Muslims in Thrace as if they were all Turkish and to harass the Greek goverment about the appointment of the Mufti. In other words Ankara wants to appoint the mufti of the Greek-Muslim minority herself!   Regarding TRNC, if the event's between 1963-1974 against the Turks of Cyprus didn't occur, if the Greek's of Cyprus didn't try to turn Cyprus into a religous extremist state run by a crazy Bishop Makarios hell-bent on Enosis the elimination of Turks from the island, Turkey wouldn't have been forced to use its Guaranteur right to enter.   Pretending that pre-1974 doesn't exist and blaming everything on the Tuks is a bit unfair. Exactly my point. There's a feeling of DISTRUST and enmity that affects greek perception of the Greek-Muslim minority in Thrace. TODAY  it is the Turkish goverment who in my oppinion have to extend a hand of friendship towards the other side. As long as this hand is not forthcoming, "bumps" (extant but NOT insurmountable) will exist.     Sure Turks arn't angels and caused problems for Greeks aswell elsewhere but neither are the Greeks, both are as bad as each other but neither will admit it.

Originally posted by Anton Neoptolemos, I ment not only Greek fellows in this forum but my Greek friends as well. Of course, you didn't learn them from school. Arguments are as you mentioned -- last vote and fights for Greece. What is wrong? The wrong is that votes for party do not points to their the real number of those people. Here are some explanation why: 1. They do not vote since they are not interested in Greek politics. 2. They are brain washed and consider that to be a Bulgarian (read Tartats) is a shame (remember Grekomani and are brothers from Skopje). 3  The program of this party is bad. 4. The program of this party is nationalistic and those people do not want to wake up the sleeping lion. Because bad peace is better than good war (as Russians say). 5. Because (correct me if I am wrong but as I understood this is what this party did) they allied with gay party which was not a good move and led to political death of the party from the very begining. 6. They are just affraid to vote for this party. These are example of explanations why they didn't get enough votes.

And I can find a few more explanations. They voted for a party in which a friend of a friend was a candidate; they where bored to go and vote... etc. The fact is that if you belong to a suppressed minority and your rights are not being respected then the elections is the best opportunity for you to have your voice heard! So you go and vote for the party that tries to fight for you and your rights. And what's even better, you voice your concerns/opinions and at the same time you keep your anonymity, since your vote is secret.
Therefore, if there was a 100,000-200,000 strong, (suppressed) "Macedonian" minority in Greek Macedonia, their party would get a lot more than 3,000 votes there. If you don't agree with this then what can I say...

Originally posted by Bulldog   Infact, I've never heard of such an issue untill today which leads me to think why it's even being brought up? Do the Roma and Pomak associate themselves as Turks or feel closer to Turks is this the problem? what exactly is the issue and what proof is there that Turkey is somehow in Greece Turkifying people.

So what has Turkey got to do with this? its not like Turkey is in Greece forcing Roma with a gun to their head to say their Turks.

Edited by Bulldog - 14-Jan-2007 at 08:55