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Israel vs Lebanon, the sequel
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Zagros View Drop Down
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Israel vs Lebanon, the sequel
    Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 14:06
Whatever my political ideas, I am above all a humanist - There is no way that I will ever be an apologist for or sell my soul and beliefs in favour of Israel's (or any other nation's) unlawful behaviour against innocent civilians.
 
Israel has an agenda here, that is for sure, its actions defy logic.  They want to defeat Hezbollah, yet they bomb everyone around them? That is surely going to create more SUPPORT FOR THEM!!! All of you Zionist apologists should wake up and smell the coffee.
 
Were the two (as yet still alive) ISraeli soldier's lives worth the 50 or so ISraelis killed by Hezbollah (nevermind the huge number of displaced and dead Lebanese)?
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Posts: 1458 		  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 14:31
Everyone supporting Israel or Hezbollah in these current actions are ignorants, hitlerists, rage-a-holics, political cowards too afraid to think differently from their mainstream nations views and also hypocrits who selectively choose which death is worth it and which not.

Go Lebanon, resist the coldbloodedness of the zionist politicians!!!!!!!Clap

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Posts: 2967 		  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 14:31
You have your heart set out believing that Israel has an agenda of killing innocent victims and that wherever they bomb they have no descretion.

I am not here to try to change your mind, or anyone like you because that would be a waste of time. Instead this will be a good oppurtunity to set an example for those who still have trouble looking at the issue.

Israel is defending itself, as most people are saying over and over again. Israel should not share the same border with people who want to absolutely annihalate them. They should not live in constant fear of attacks from terrorist groups.

Saying that Israel has a different agenda besides defending herself is absoultely absurd. They are doing the right thing, and the only thing that can insure their safety. We have tried diplomacy, resoultions, doctors, nurses, donations, and the terrorists still want to KILL KILL KILL! And not only the Israelis. The terrorists are hardcore muslims that want to revert back to the middle ages and will kill jews, christians, even muslims that are not as hardcore as they are.

As i say again, Israel is doing the action that people like Hezbollah only understand, and that is force.




BTW Zagros you are still an awsome guy!


Edited by Ponce de Leon - 25-Jul-2006 at 14:43
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 14:45
Israel has already stated its goal and that is to turn the clock back on Lebanon by 20 years. Defending itself? right ok, whatever you say Ponce.
 
If Israel is defending itself, then so was Al Qaeda on 911.
 
Simple as that, no more to it.
 
I am done in this discussion. 
 
 


Edited by Zagros - 25-Jul-2006 at 15:00
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Posts: 3638 		  Quote ulrich von hutten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 14:57
another test , as well for the international world as for our forum.everyone on this planet has the right to live, if he respects the rights of the other beings.israel and the palestines ,the lebanon and even some iranian lunatic leaders. and everybody has the right to defend against those who want to deny these fundamental rights. but now it's once again time to break down this spiral of violence. there is only one possibility and that's diplomacy and negotiations.
and onother time the questions ,why can't live the humanity in peace since the man or woman made the first step on this planet ? what should we do with all this war mongers on each side?
lets make a pause and lets remind of all the victims of these wars which didn't even reach the age of 10 !!!
my little doughter is just playing beside me with her toys and i'm glad to see her at this hot summer night (staying in germany ) and my thoughts are going to the kids at the sudan, iraq, lebanon, or all parts of the world where desperates parents can't avoid the death of one of there darlings.
tears are running down ,writing these words......
why we are ruled by leaders , who are only knowing the answer of the questions is coming out of the gun barrel ?

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Posts: 1211 		  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 15:05
Originally posted by Komnenos

Originally posted by Zagros

History has shown that fascist regimes have no future, Israel's will be no exception. I just hope I am around to see them get it served and all racist Israelis hang their heads in shame (like their German counterparts 60 years previous) when they realise that, no, they are not god's chosen race, their lives are not more valuable than anyone elses and they cannot just steal people's land because they need lebensraum.
 
I say Israel denounces its racist policies and removes its Zionist (Nazi) regime, retreats to the 1967 borders and IF, IF the Palestinians, Hezzies or anyone else STILL attacks, then and only then will I support Israel.  But that won't happen because peace is not something that is desireable for a nation such as ISrael, it thrives on fear and violence.
 
 
There sems to be an overall tendency to make inflationary use of the term "fascsist", and I'm afraid this is another one, and specifically as the above post tries to portray similarities between the motives for the Nazis genocidal and agressive policies, and Israel's raison d'etre.
 
The motives for the Holocaust were simply those of pathological racial hatred and nothing else, the Jewish people in the 30s and 40s were no political, social or military thread to the Nazis. It was utter barbarism in in its most senseless form.
The settlement of Jewish people in Palestine, the foundation of the State of Israel, and the war of 60 years that Israel has conducted against its neighbours, were the product of a desperate attempt of a persecuted people to establish a safe-haven that could guarantee its existence.
Zionism has been forced onto the Jewish people, they have not chosen it, it is the result of two millenia of relentless prosecution.
Israel does not so much "thrive on fear and violence" but is the result of an endless experience by its people of both.
Much of the psyche and actions of the State of Israel can be explained and understood by the history of its people, and it is impossible to ignore this. Israel believes it self to be in a constant fight for survival, in a constant fight to prevent the repetition of Auschwitz.
And listening to the propaganda coming out of Teheran, endlessly repeated all over the Middle-East, with some good reason.
To be confonted once again with demands for a total destruction of its people, as stated by the Iranian regime and its puppet organisations, Israel is put before an impossible situation. It can and should not allow any attempt to realise such plans, even not in their beginnings.
Israel and Palestine have obviously been chosen as the substitute frontline for an ideological and military conflict , and  the Jewish people have been identified as being the weakest link in the Western chain, and once again  have been selected as the prospective victims of annihilation. Here is the line where classical Anti-Semitism and modern Anti-Zionism touch.
Much of the methods, and certainly the last episode in the Lebanon, that Israel has applied over the last few decades to establish and defend itself can only be condemned, but as long as there are countries, organisations and individuals that call for Isreal's death, at least they should be given the right to defend themselves.
 
 
Hadn't this came from you Komnenos, I would have never thought of this post as being at least inappropriate. Bu I'm appaled! I'll post a reply tomorrow if you're interested, right now I just boledd up the things that I consider non-cusher.
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 15:06
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5209502.stm
 
Israel is a vindictive fascist country. It did the same thing by stirring up the civil war, before which Lebanon was one of the most prosporous countries in teh ME and Beirut was the Paris of the ME.
 
 
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Posts: 2967 		  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 15:09
I wouldnt trust the BBC on this issue. They are too way out of it by supporting the terrorists it seems
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Posts: 2252 		  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 15:47
Originally posted by Kalevipoeg

Everyone supporting Israel or Hezbollah in these current actions are ignorants, hitlerists, rage-a-holics, political cowards too afraid to think differently from their mainstream nations views and also hypocrits who selectively choose which death is worth it and which not.

Go Lebanon, resist the coldbloodedness of the zionist politicians!!!!!!!Clap

The truth had to be told...
 
well said Kalevipoeg, seems all men are still not equal in life or death.
 
 
Zagros
 
It is funny how most humanist including myself end up speaking against Zionism.
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Posts: 4361 		  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 19:53
Originally posted by Zagros

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5209502.stm
 
Israel is a vindictive fascist country. It did the same thing by stirring up the civil war, before which Lebanon was one of the most prosporous countries in teh ME and Beirut was the Paris of the ME.
 
 
 
 
Just wrote a lenghty piece trying to explain why Israel is not a fascist state, and then I lost it, cause the Forum logged me out and I'm now too tired to write it all again.
So, you have to take my word for it. Trust me. I'm a German.
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Posts: 1211 		  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 13:11
Originally posted by Komnenos

The settlement of Jewish people in Palestine, the foundation of the State of Israel, and the war of 60 years that Israel has conducted against its neighbours, were the product of a desperate attempt of a persecuted people to establish a safe-haven that could guarantee its existence.
Zionism has been forced onto the Jewish people, they have not chosen it, it is the result of two millenia of relentless prosecution.
 
The fascists/nazis/extremists then and now say that anti-semitism was forced into their nation.
Persecuted nation?! - what nation?. Modern Israel was born about 60 years ago. Does "German nation" means only "true blue germans" (what would that mean anyway - back to adolf days when checking for pure arians?)?
Is anyone justified to punish me for what some of my ancestors did to his ancestors?
 
Israel does not so much "thrive on fear and violence" but is the result of an endless experience by its people of both.
 
So we, Romanians could go on zapping the Magyars, the Turks or even the Germans (not to mention Russians, Bulgars, Greeks, or some others). "An eye for an eye" is this concept yours or is it jus a jewish concept you seem to agree. Maybe Israel should attack Germany because of the Holocaust, or Spain and Portugal  for what the Inquisition did.
 
Much of the psyche and actions of the State of Israel can be explained and understood by the history of its people, and it is impossible to ignore this. Israel believes it self to be in a constant fight for survival, in a constant fight to prevent the repetition of Auschwitz.
And listening to the propaganda coming out of Teheran, endlessly repeated all over the Middle-East, with some good reason.
To be confonted once again with demands for a total destruction of its people, as stated by the Iranian regime and its puppet organisations, Israel is put before an impossible situation. It can and should not allow any attempt to realise such plans, even not in their beginnings.
 
Paranoia is not quite an argument. How many concentration camps are built in Iran for the jews? The threats of Teheran (which I do not agree with, but that's another story) should be responded by attacking Lebannon? You mean Spain should invade Andorra because some ETA terrorists are sheltered there? Or should the UK have attacked Ireland because IRA members were living there?
Don't you think if maybe Israel made the situation impossible by the way they treated the Palestinians?
 
Israel and Palestine have obviously been chosen as the substitute frontline for an ideological and military conflict , and  the Jewish people have been identified as being the weakest link in the Western chain, and once again  have been selected as the prospective victims of annihilation. Here is the line where classical Anti-Semitism and modern Anti-Zionism touch.
 
Obvious as in proven? Do you hold any proofs tho make this obvious? Yo know, is not that obvious that the Earth is a globe but it sure have been gathered some proofs about it. 
Who identified the jews as a weakest link, the Arabs + Iranians (Muslims) or the the Western chain?
What is the worst fear of those jews who live in Israel: to be attacked by their arab neighbours or to loose the support of the West?
 
 
Much of the methods, and certainly the last episode in the Lebanon, that Israel has applied over the last few decades to establish and defend itself can only be condemned, but as long as there are countries, organisations and individuals that call for Isreal's death, at least they should be given the right to defend themselves.
 
 
That's quoting Napoleon as in "Attack is the best defence". What does this right to defend means, after all? To kill innocent people in order to make those who are guilty not to repeat their deeds?
Remember, back in '99 when the US bombed Belgrade they hit the Chinese embassy. Was that a rightful act?
Sure I know about collateral damage but isn't this term just overused?
What if Israel just nukes Teheran in order to "defend itself"?


Edited by Cezar - 26-Jul-2006 at 13:14
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Your silly and funny.

Oh and almost forgot.....naiive
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Posts: 1207 		  Quote Jay. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 13:52
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon

Israel is defending itself, as most people are saying over and over again. Israel should not share the same border with people who want to absolutely annihalate them. They should not live in constant fear of attacks from terrorist groups.

Very well said, Ponce, and I agree with you 100%. I also beleive that the Israeli people do not have to live in fear from terrorists attacks, such as suicide bombers.
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Posts: 1211 		  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 14:25
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon

Your silly and funny.

Oh and almost forgot.....naiive
 
Just because you think so that doesn't mean I really am. Maybe my post looks silly to you, but there's an ocean between us.
Can I zap that US marine who killed one of our peolpe? Just in order to make sure that that never happens again. Could you do it for me?
 
 
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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Posts: 2979 		  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 15:04
Cezar  Well said Clap
 
Komnenos
 
i was going to comment on your post above but was waiting for the second part of your post. Cezar made good points above.
 
so basically all you saying is that "Because of what happened to Jews in the past", they have the right to "chose" any land to be their Nation because they have the right to have a country , i did ask you about the "ignoring" the part of "who is living in that land" before the poor zionist make their pick,
 
for your info Zionist leaders asked Land of Israel to be from Phurat river to Nile river.
 
--------------
 
another point, is that Jews are not the only ethnicity who didnt/dont have a nation or a country for themselves, lets talk about Native Americans whos land was taken by force, their people were killed, a foreign language/religion/culture forced upon them, their language is going to extinct soon,  Dont they have the right to have a nation where they can protect their language religion and culture, lets say the land of their ancestor whats called now north america? do native americans have the right now to kick all non-natives out of the US?
 
the native american example is not even fair when talking about Israelis, since native americans lived in north america, while israelis lived everywhere in the middle east with OTHER PEPLE ALL THE TIME, that land was never an ONLY jewish land.
 
-------------
 
about the one nation proposition, it was proposed by arab nation, that all People in Paleistine have same rights and live in a democratic nation. Zionist refused because they were sure they can have a only jews nation or a nation where they have the control even if its a democratic nation ( by majority aspect).
 
Israel or Zionist were the ones who refused peace from the beginning.
 
 
--------------------------
 
 
Ponce De leon,
 
you are the silly and the naive one here, and its a fact.
 
 
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Posts: 1211 		  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 15:04

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Posts: 1211 		  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 15:20
Originally posted by azimuth

Israel or Zionist were the ones who refused peace from the beginning.
 
Not the peace, the western standards of democracyTongue. Which actually seems to work like this: "The "minority" have rights but of all "minority" there are those who we choose to have some special rights. Now, we tell them all other that they have the same rigths but we only back up those that we choose. Actually those that we think we choose. Or maybe those that we can convince (manipulateOuch) our majority that they've chosen. Or those that are serving us (use being here used as we, the (magnificent) leaders (politiciansOuch) of the incoprehensibvle immesurable valourous western modern culture and civilization (Dead)"
 
*Ghhh, I'm just about to break AE rules (of engagementWink)!
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Posts: 1458 		  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 15:56
And what Israeli defense reaction towards the endless aggression towards them??????? They are an official army with rules of conduct and they are doing everything to cause more upheaval without any real results. Killing civilians doesn't get results. How can we sympathize with Israel while they are just using Hezbollah tactics and methods??????? INSANE, nothing more.Angry
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 17:13
Rabid anti-semite, Kofi Annan, slams Israel for deliberate murder of UN observers who made 10 calls warning ISraelis that they were being hit during hours of shelling by Israelis before a jet obliterated it with a precision bomb. It was a well known and CLEARLy marked post.
 
 
 189 countries call for immediate ceasefire, 3 do not (UK, US, ISrael) - clearly, those 189 countries are led also by rabid anti-Semites.


Edited by Zagros - 26-Jul-2006 at 18:06
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