Normans?

Originally posted by gcle2003   Bretons are French? I suppose the Welsh are English?   The concept of 'Frenchness' took even longer to emerge than the concept of 'Englishness'.

Edited by Quetzalcoatl - 23-Jul-2006 at 21:24

Well, the Breton are really apart somehow since they have a distinct culture.

Nowaday though, and I'm not only talking legaly, they are French. Although in 1066 and prior to the 20th century they clearly had a disctinct culture.

There has been, by now, a lot of intermixing with Bretons and the rest of French. There aren't a lot of Breton that can speak their language too. French has completly taken over. This nationalism there is really contained, and it's more about people who want to look interesting that real national desire.

It's the same really for southern France, in my example, Gascony or sometimes refered on Aquitaine (back then, later Aquitaine would take another meaning), which is the place I'm from. In 1066 we certainly weren't French (although it is said some of us took part in the Battle of Hastings, there has been a few books on that I should take the time to read one on the aquitanian participation in Hastings), we had an occitan culture which was clearly distinct of the one in Paris (or Normandy since for us it's the same, they were always together when it came to f**k us) and even inside the Occitan group we had a completly distinct culture (for insistance, most occitan languages come from vulgar latin, like French or Italian, Gascon comes from the Aquitanian language and evolve to a romance one, the phonetic and vocabulary is completly different of other occitan languages), different laws, different cuisine, different sports (in Northern France they played an older form of Soccer that Normandy introduced in England, here we had Basque sports), different architecture (see the houses and castles, you'll understand)

Most of that isn't true for the Normans, they had some scandinavian culture, yet to claim it above their French one is ridiculous. The had the French law, the French language, French haircut, French architecture, French cuisine etc...

@gcle2003
Don't you rather mean Occitan Cathars rather than Catalan Cathars? I don't quite like my native city of Toulouse being associated to those people from Barcelona, Valencia and even Perpignan thank you.

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl Frankish is actually the same thing as French. French people don't call themselves French but Francais (in English it's translate to Frankish not French). THe name French arose in England simply because the English couldn't pronounce Franc correctly.

Actually, that's a little confusing but French isn't Frankish in French. It's the latin language that doesn't do the distinction.

French (modern people) is Fran�ais
Frankish (old Frankish from the times of Charlemagne) is Franc
Frankish (modern Frankish spoken in Lorraine) is Francique
Franconian (that the Germans call Frankish in their language) is Francique too.

That being said, before the oath of Strasbourg, it's impossible to track a French indentity, before that it was more split between Frankish and Gallo-Romance who shared the same land. Although, before of the roman empire they were already closer that they would have ever accepted.

Anyway, I don't see the comparison really between Franks and Normans.

Franks refered to a Germanic people which had clear tribal origins and that disapeared in history. They had no clear country beyond the one they aquired in Gaul which would become France and before that they migrated and had no clear clearly organised laws or society (it was a very barbaric society before they settled in Gaul, compare it with Aquitaine that retained the Roman law for ages after the fall of Rome).

The Normans are not a tribe but a product of history, they had a clear and established land, Normandy, where the Norman culture orginated (like the French culture originated in France has a whole), a clear language (the French one with dialectic difference), clear laws and established society. And there is hundred of years between Franks and Normans.

Originally posted by Exarchus Actually, that's a little confusing but French isn't Frankish in French. It's the latin language that doesn't do the distinction. French (modern people) is Fran�ais Frankish (old Frankish from the times of Charlemagne) is Franc Frankish (modern Frankish spoken in Lorraine) is Francique Franconian (that the Germans call Frankish in their language) is Francique too. That being said, before the oath of Strasbourg, it's impossible to track a French indentity, before that it was more split between Frankish and Gallo-Romance who shared the same land. Although, before of the roman empire they were already closer that they would have ever accepted.

Edited by Quetzalcoatl - 24-Jul-2006 at 19:40

Ok I see what you mean, Fran�ais is etymologicaly Frankish in French. But we don't use it the same way.

Originally posted by Exarchus Originally posted by edgewaters Definately not. The Franks were a collection of Germanic tribes including the Sugambri and Bructeri. They crossed the Rhine, causing problems for Emperor Julian who decided to grant them lands in northern Gaul, where they settled. The Dutch language traces its roots back to Old Low Franconian, a Germanic language.      Well to be more accurate, it's the Belgian that have the most serious claim to be the closest heirs to the Franks really.

Originally posted by gcle2003 Well, the Belgians speak Dutch <ducks hurriedly>, so that does not invalidate exarchus's point.

Huh? My point was the Belgian were the strongest claimant and not the Dutch, beside Belgium is also French speaking as far as I remember. The earliest capital of the Franks, Tournai, is even French speaking as we speak.

The home town of the Carolingian dinasty is Herstal located around Liege and it's also French speaking (Pippin of Herstal).

Originally posted by Exarchus Originally posted by gcle2003 Well, the Belgians speak Dutch <ducks hurriedly>, so that does not invalidate exarchus's point. Huh? My point was the Belgian were the strongest claimant and not the Dutch, beside Belgium is also French speaking as far as I remember. The earliest capital of the Franks, Tournai, is even French speaking as we speak.The home town of the Carolingian dinasty is Herstal located around Liege and it's also French speaking (Pippin of Herstal).

Sure, geographically, but linguistically, Dutch is alot closer to Old Low Franconian than French is. OLF is not a Romance language - it is strictly Germanic.

Example, "Hebben alle vogels nesten begonnen behalve ik en u wat beginnen we nu?" ("All the birds have started their nests except me and you. What are we waiting for now?")
    
    

Edited by edgewaters - 25-Jul-2006 at 13:46

This thread progresses fast and there's a lot of aspects I'd wanted to talk about. However, until I'll find the mood to compile them all into one post, I'll just want to add something I find vital and I see it's not considered.