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Imperator Invictus
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Topic: Latin vs. Germanic influences on English Posted: 24-Nov-2004 at 20:58 |
Although almost 60% of Enligh's vocabulary is Latin-derived, it is
considered to be a Germanic language. Being one who doesn't know
anything about German, I am curious to know what is the gramatical
connection between English and German, and ultimately, why is English
considered to be Germanic, because I see that English has a lot of
grammar from Latin as well.
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Gubook Janggoon
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Posted: 24-Nov-2004 at 21:03 |
Not sure about this, but sometimes when I hear German I understand what they say.
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vagabond
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Posted: 24-Nov-2004 at 21:16 |
The English Grammar, sentence structure - all that stuff - is Germanic - based in Old English. The traditional reference dates for Old English usage run from 449 - 1066. 1066 saw - of course - the Norman invasion of England and for many years thereafter - French was the court language. In addition, English borrowed heavily from Latin - the official language of the church, and in modern times has also borrowed from Spanish, Italian - from all the Romance languages.
Old English 449 - 1066 http://www.bartleby.com/68/58/4258.html
Middle English - 1066 - 1550 http://www.bartleby.com/68/63/3863.html
Early modern English - 1550 - 1750 http://www.bartleby.com/68/3/2103.html
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In the time of your life, live - so that in that wonderous time you shall not add to the misery and sorrow of the world, but shall smile to the infinite delight and mystery of it. (Saroyan)
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Imperator Invictus
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Posted: 24-Nov-2004 at 21:40 |
How about some examples of sentence structure comparisons?
In many cases, Latin and english have identical structures.
Marcus spectat Brutum, qui suus frater est.
Marcus watches Brutus, who his brother he is (who is his brother).
The only difference here, which displays a relative clause, is the
placement of the verb (est), but in English, it was considered
acceptible to place verbs at the end. Yoda does that too. lol In Latin,
the verb doesn't necessarily have to be at the end. It can also go in
the middle, as well.
Also note that Latin and English both have predicate nominatives in the same case.
Marcus scit Brutum esse suum fratrem
Marcus knows of Brutus to be his brother (Marcus knows that Brutus is his brother).
If we can excuse some word endings, the two sentence structures are
almost identical, although the first translation isn't the natural form
of indirect statement in english,
Edited by Imperator Invictus
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 25-Nov-2004 at 02:33 |
"who his brother he is" Can you really say that, it sounds extremely Yoda-ish.
English has a Germanic base, it's roots, grammar, prepositions, numerals, pronouns etc are all Germanic, you'll find Latin words merely as nouns and verbs - typical for vocabulary borrowing. And I really doubt the 60% Latin thing, it sounds awfully too much.
Edited by Styrbiorn
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Exorsis C
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Posted: 25-Nov-2004 at 03:56 |
Marcus spectat Brutum, qui suus frater est. Marcus watches Brutus, who his brother he is (who is his brother).
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And in German that would be:
Marcus beobachtet Brutus, der sein Bruder ist.
Which means that Latin and German has exactly the same order in which the words are put... therefore showing that all three languages are related grammar-wise to some extent.
Edited by Exorsis C
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 25-Nov-2004 at 06:05 |
Marcus spectat Brutum, qui suus frater est. Marcus watches Brutus, who his brother he is (who is his brother). |
If in Latin verbs are at the end of sentences then it should be like Persian:
Marcus Brutus ra, ke baradar-e ou ast, mibinad. (Marcus Brutus [ra = sign of the direct object], who brother of him is, watches.
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Cywr
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Posted: 25-Nov-2004 at 19:37 |
The closest Germanic language to English is Friesan, ancestraly
speaking (Friesian, Angle and Saxon came from the same area,
geographicly).
So its considered Germanic because of the ancestrial connection, which
still forms a good chunk of the overall structure of the language.
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Arrrgh!!"
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demon
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Posted: 25-Nov-2004 at 19:40 |
So is that why It's hard for English speakers to learn Spanish?
e.g. Like in Spanish there are 2 ways to say "became". Is it same for german?
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Grrr..
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Cywr
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Posted: 25-Nov-2004 at 19:51 |
I don't think its inherantly hard for English speakers to Learn
Spanish, but rather, that the two most populous majority English
speaking countries have a long tradition of makine a poor effort on the
language front, plus there is very little day to day exposure.
British TV is one hudnred percent English, and foriegn movies, when
they make out of the arthouse niche, are dubbed, their are a few
forieng language TV channels, but they are safely locked away in
obscure satelite/cable channels, where 90% of the country never has to
see them.
I don't know exactly what its like in the US, but from what i've heard its similar, though not as bad/extreme.
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Arrrgh!!"
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JanusRook
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Posted: 28-Nov-2004 at 19:40 |
I don't know exactly what its like in the US, but from what i've heard its similar, though not as bad/extreme.
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Everything is in english. Workplace everything is in english and spanish, on cable there is only spanish-speaking stations. Although at my mom's house there was a german only cable station.
I don't think its inherantly hard for English speakers to Learn Spanish, but rather, that the two most populous majority English speaking countries have a long tradition of makine a poor effort on the language front, plus there is very little day to day exposure.
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Well using me as an example I received a D in spanish and a B+ in german so.....
Also depending on where you live there is tons of day to day exposure with spanish.
Also I'm not an english major, but aren't all of these sentences acceptable? Does english have the most lax rules on verb placement ever, classified as SVO my ass.
SVO: I ran to the red ball.
SOV: I to the red ball ran. VOS: Ran to the red ball I [did]. VSO: Ran I to the red ball.
OVS: To the red ball ran I. OSV: To the red ball I ran.
Not so sure on VOS or VSO, too alien to my ears.
Edited by JanusRook
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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.
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Posted: 28-Nov-2004 at 19:50 |
"to the red ball" is no object. It's a...
what's the English word? Adverbial thingy.
Anyway, Germanic languages are somewhat SVO, but it's not really strict. And there are lots of cases it's not SVO.
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 29-Nov-2004 at 03:47 |
Originally posted by MixcoatlToltecahtecuhtli
"to the red ball" is no object. It's a...
what's the English word? Adverbial thingy.
Anyway, Germanic languages are somewhat SVO, but it's not really strict. And there are lots of cases it's not SVO.
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True, but at least in Swedish, all those examples mentioned are acceptable, though VSO is used strictly for questions.
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JanusRook
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Posted: 29-Nov-2004 at 09:25 |
what's the English word? Adverbial thingy.
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Don't ask me I was taught American English, which means nothing but pointless vocabulary and reading books written between 1850-1950.
True, but at least in Swedish, all those examples mentioned are acceptable, though VSO is used strictly for questions.
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So can all germanic languages do this, or can romance...indo-european...all...languages do that?
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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
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vagabond
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Posted: 29-Nov-2004 at 14:13 |
(I think you made it up - but I love the term)
Or perhaps a preposition? Making "to the red ball" a prepositional phrase?
Following the examples given - only a few really work in modern english - the others either fall into the archaic category or just don't work at all.
SVO: I throw the ball.
SOV: I the ball throw. VOS: Throw the ball I. VSO: Throw I the ball?
OVS: The ball throw I. OSV: The ball I throw.
Cornellia - how many forumers does it take to deconstruct a sentence?
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In the time of your life, live - so that in that wonderous time you shall not add to the misery and sorrow of the world, but shall smile to the infinite delight and mystery of it. (Saroyan)
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Posted: 29-Nov-2004 at 14:47 |
Originally posted by vagabond
(I think you made it up - but I love the term)
Or perhaps a preposition? Making "to the red ball" a prepositional phrase? |
It's "bijwoordelijke bepaling" in Dutch. Bijwoordelijk is adverbial in
English, I don't know the translation of bepaling in this context.
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Serge L
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Posted: 29-Nov-2004 at 16:35 |
One aspect whre pretty much all German languages differ from Neo-latin ones is the relative position of adjective: before the substantive in the former, after it in the latter.
That, BTW causes that funny effect of the "inverted abbreviations". For instance, UNO is ONU in French, Spanish, Italian, etc.
DNA becomes ADN in French, NATO => OTAN, AIDS => SIDA, etc.
In that, English betrays it's Germanic origin.
Similar for pronuciation of some consonants: t is aspirated in the Gerrman Languages, fully dental (sort of mid-way between English t and th) in the Romances; R is stronger and thriled in Romances (with the noticeable exception of French) than in Germanic; Neo-Latin ones have the sound "gn/nh/" which is unknown in Teutonics, etc.
The Germanic origin of English is evident because of those and other, many smal characteristics.
However, It's true that the Latin influence was enormous in English, and I would not doubt that 60% figure if you do not consider words coming from Latin, but also from neo-Latin languages, mainly French, but also Italian, Spanish, etc.
Certainly, English is the more Latinized Germanic Languages (however, latinisms are not negligible in German too), as well as French is the most Germanized of the Romances.
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Imperator Invictus
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Posted: 30-Nov-2004 at 21:30 |
I guess one arguement to get around is that in English, you can have an appositive.
The hungry dog ate the food
The dog, hungry, ate the food
Also, people seems to have imitated the latin world order by
using an article before the adj. Of coures, during the early modern
period, English experienced one of its heaviest wave of latin influence
in terms of grammar.
Book the first (instead of the second book)
Alexander the great (instead of Great alexander)
Also, in latin, word order is not very strict, especially once you get into poetry.
Edited by Imperator Invictus
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 01-Dec-2004 at 13:51 |
Originally posted by Imperator Invictus
Also, people seems to have imitated the latin world order by
using an article before the adj. Of coures, during the early modern
period, English experienced one of its heaviest wave of latin influence
in terms of grammar.
Book the first (instead of the second book)
Alexander the great (instead of Great alexander)
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This is not strictly Latin practice, it's common for all Germanic languages and not a result of Latin influence.
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Posted: 08-Dec-2004 at 10:56 |
Originally posted by Imperator Invictus
How about some examples of sentence structure comparisons?
In many cases, Latin and english have identical structures.
Marcus spectat Brutum, qui suus frater est.
Marcus watches Brutus, who his brother he is (who is his brother).
The only difference here, which displays a relative clause, is the
placement of the verb (est), but in English, it was considered
acceptible to place verbs at the end. Yoda does that too. lol In Latin,
the verb doesn't necessarily have to be at the end. It can also go in
the middle, as well.
Also note that Latin and English both have predicate nominatives in the same case.
Marcus scit Brutum esse suum fratrem
Marcus knows of Brutus to be his brother (Marcus knows that Brutus is his brother).
If we can excuse some word endings, the two sentence structures are
almost identical, although the first translation isn't the natural form
of indirect statement in english,
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Don't forget both English and Latin are Indo-European languages, so
don't be surprised at their similarities in grammar structure.
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