Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Attila the Hun-is he Asian or Indo-European?
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1011121314 19>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Raider View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 06-Jun-2005
Location: Hungary
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 804 		  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Attila the Hun-is he Asian or Indo-European?
    Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 09:23
Originally posted by Alparslan

Originally posted by Raider

 
I do not doubt that Turkish Emre is a derivative of Emir, but the Hungarian Imre (older form Emre) isa derivative of German Heinrich more precisely its latin form: Heinricus-> Hemericus -> Emericus -> Emre ->Imre
 
 
Puffff this is nonsense. From Heinricus to Imre....... Hemeroid can be another possibility....
 
 
 
 
 
Hungarian king Geza received a crown from the Byzantine Emperor inscriped with the legend "to Geza, the faithful king of Turks".
 
Do you think that Byzantines were making mistakes in classifying the people with whom they were getting into diplomatic relation? I do not think so.
 
Byzantines were in contact with Kokturks in 7th century. They have send and received diplomatic envoys to each others. In Byzantine armies there were Christianized Pecheneg, Kuman, Uz Turks. Some of them became later Turcopols or Turkopol troops during Crusades. 
 
I have also found some interesting link to share with you.... 
 
 
1. Heinrich - Imre
The deduction is quite clear. The first known Imre was St. Imre the son of St. Stephen. He was named after the Holy Roman emperor and there are transitory forms.
 
2. It is true that Byzantines called the Magyars Turks and Hungary Turkia, this presumably based on their lifestyle, not their language. And do not forget even in XIX. century there were considerable scientists (for example rmin Vmbry) who beleived that Hungarian is a Turk language.
Back to Top
Aster Thrax Eupator View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended

Suspended

Joined: 18-Jul-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1929 		  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 09:55
But surely the Hungarians cannot have that much lineage with the Centeral Asians anymore? I mean, they don't look like centeral Asians- some real merging of peoples must have taken place because a "Hun" would have looked Turkic origionally
Back to Top
ijjas View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 30-Jun-2006
Location: Hungary
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0 		  Quote ijjas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 15:03


Originally posted by Earl Aster

But surely the Hungarians cannot have that much lineage with the Centeral Asians anymore? I mean, they don't look like centeral Asians- some real merging of peoples must have taken place because a "Hun" would have looked Turkic origionally


I have put some links here:
Origin of hungarians

For introduction here are two pictures:

He is the last paloc bigpiper. The paloc people are consedered by experts turkic-tatar origin, their name derives from the russian"polovci". In the old russian and old czeh the name plavci meand, among others: kuman, but originally the word meand: yellow, blond.
This picture is from the day of St. Anna in the city Balassagyarmat.

    

Edited by ijjas - 19-Jul-2006 at 15:04
Back to Top
Aster Thrax Eupator View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended

Suspended

Joined: 18-Jul-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1929 		  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 16:33
Oh! So they have Slavic blood as well!
Back to Top
xi_tujue View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Atabeg

Joined: 19-May-2006
Location: Belgium
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1919 		  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 16:43
Originally posted by Earl Aster

Oh! So they have Slavic blood as well!
 
if your talking about the huns no way jose. xiongnu strictley asian turkic
 
if your talking about european huns turkic germanic and goth
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
Back to Top
xi_tujue View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Atabeg

Joined: 19-May-2006
Location: Belgium
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1919 		  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 17:20

for all non believers that the huns weren't turkic here
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
Back to Top
ijjas View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 30-Jun-2006
Location: Hungary
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0 		  Quote ijjas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 18:22


    Here is a picture of a couldron from the museum of Urumqi:

And here is an other couldron found in hungary:



The pictures are from the book of Lszl Brdi, Az ősi selyemt vilga, Masszi, Budapest 2003
    

Edited by ijjas - 19-Jul-2006 at 18:24
Back to Top
minchickie View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 03-Jul-2005
Location: Hungary
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 241 		  Quote minchickie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 01:16
Originally posted by Raider

Some remarks:
 
1. Turan:
As far as I know it's a geographical term. Hungary is in Europe, not in Asia, not in Turan.
 
2. Attila:
Attila did not live in Hungary, Hungary did not existed when he lived and Magyars lived far away presumed that proto-Magyar ethnogenesis was complete. By the way there is a good chance that Attila lived in the territory of modern Romania (more precisely Moldavia), not Hungary.
 
3. For Hungarian names:
Emre -in its current form Imre- is a derivative of German Heinrich.
 
4. For Hungarian ancestors:
Ijjas was right, when the Hungarians arrived the Carpathian Basin was sparsely populated. But in the following 1100 years Hungarians mixed with various people.
 
Here is an example of a Hungarian that wants nothing to do with Turks or their Asian past. I am not one of them.
 
1. Hungarians are originally from Asia. They are Turan, and they have coexisted with Turkic tribes since the beginning times.
 
2. ". Attila:
Attila did not live in Hungary, Hungary did not existed when he lived.."
I cant believe you even would have the balls to write such crap! You are embarressing other Hungarians with this sentence alone.
 
3. Emre is not a German name. Show me a German who has this name.  Emre-Irme, same thing.
 
4.Yes, everyone knows hungarians have mixed with other Europeans. Just like Turks have mixed with middle easterns. Just like Irish have mixed with English... is this supposed to be a newsflash? 
Back to Top
Raider View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 06-Jun-2005
Location: Hungary
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 804 		  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 02:50
Originally posted by minchickie

Originally posted by Raider

Some remarks:
 
1. Turan:
As far as I know it's a geographical term. Hungary is in Europe, not in Asia, not in Turan.
 
2. Attila:
Attila did not live in Hungary, Hungary did not existed when he lived and Magyars lived far away presumed that proto-Magyar ethnogenesis was complete. By the way there is a good chance that Attila lived in the territory of modern Romania (more precisely Moldavia), not Hungary.
 
3. For Hungarian names:
Emre -in its current form Imre- is a derivative of German Heinrich.
 
4. For Hungarian ancestors:
Ijjas was right, when the Hungarians arrived the Carpathian Basin was sparsely populated. But in the following 1100 years Hungarians mixed with various people.
 
Here is an example of a Hungarian that wants nothing to do with Turks or their Asian past. I am not one of them.
 
1. Hungarians are originally from Asia. They are Turan, and they have coexisted with Turkic tribes since the beginning times.
 
2. ". Attila:
Attila did not live in Hungary, Hungary did not existed when he lived.."
I cant believe you even would have the balls to write such crap! You are embarressing other Hungarians with this sentence alone.
 
3. Emre is not a German name. Show me a German who has this name.  Emre-Irme, same thing.
 
4.Yes, everyone knows hungarians have mixed with other Europeans. Just like Turks have mixed with middle easterns. Just like Irish have mixed with English... is this supposed to be a newsflash? 
"Here is an example of a Hungarian that wants nothing to do with Turks or their Asian past. I am not one of them."
 
I have never said that, but I do not need a fake history. Real history's glory is enough for me.
 
1. From Asia? Conceivable, but there is no sufficient evidence. I personally beleive that Magyars originated from the European steppes.
 
2. Do you ever heard about rpd and the Magyars conquest? It began in 895. Attila died nearly half of a thousand year before. Attila couldn't live in a country that was created hundreds of years after his life.
 
3. Naturally Imre is not a German name, but it comes from a German name. Do you know that both sons of St. Stephen were named in honour after Holy Roman emperors as Heinrich and Otto?
 
4. It is supposed to be an answer to Xi_tujue's post. ("I don't doubt that maygars are descendent of the huns but the maygars were and are a minority in hungary")


Edited by Raider - 20-Jul-2006 at 02:51
Back to Top
Urungu Han View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 17-Jul-2006
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 130 		  Quote Urungu Han Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 05:04
Magyars have slavic,Turkic and fin blood,they are not originally Turk ı think
Back to Top
xi_tujue View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Atabeg

Joined: 19-May-2006
Location: Belgium
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1919 		  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 05:23
raider if your theory is right still for every maygar there were lets say 100(locals)
 
but when the turks arived in the middle east they came with masses for 25 turks there were 100 (locals)
 
oufoi de greek name to describe the maygars later the same name was used to describe the oghuz turks.
 
raider you say that the hungarians are descendent of magyars but not huns(still man all turkic haha)
 
have a good one
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
Back to Top
Bulldog View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 17-May-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 07:19
1. From Asia? Conceivable, but there is no sufficient evidence. I personally beleive that Magyars originated from the European steppes.
 
Maybe you just don't want to accept that your national roots are Asian? There is a lot of sufficient evidence proving this infact most credible historians say this.
 
 
3. Naturally Imre is not a German name, but it comes from a German name. Do you know that both sons of St. Stephen were named in honour after Holy Roman emperors as Heinrich and Otto?
 
LOL Why are you still going on about this, its not a German or Germanic derrived name, proove your etymology theory please, it has already been proven the name Emre in Turkic languages is a Turk name, has a meaning in Turks languages and its syntax structure fits the language harmony rules.
 
Heinrich is a German version of the name Henry,
 
Pronounced: HEN-ree   [key]

From the Germanic name Heimerich which meant "home ruler", composed of the elements heim "home" and ric "power, ruler". This name was introduced into Britain by the Normans. It was borne by eight kings of England including the infamous Henry VIII, as well as six kings of France and seven kings of Germany. Other famous bearers include arctic naval explorer Henry Hudson, novelist Henry James, and automobile manufacturer Henry Ford.

http://www.behindthename.com/nmc/ger2.php  
 
The meaning, pronounciation, morphology "Hen-ree"-"Em-Reh" and etymology are not even remotely connected.
 
Well as you've said, your theory is "personal" and therefore subjective, there is nothing wrong with you having your views but there is no need to present them as facts.
 
 
Here is an example of a Hungarian that wants nothing to do with Turks or their Asian past. I am not one of them.
 
1. Hungarians are originally from Asia. They are Turan, and they have coexisted with Turkic tribes since the beginning times.
 
2. ". Attila:
Attila did not live in Hungary, Hungary did not existed when he lived.."
I cant believe you even would have the balls to write such crap! You are embarressing other Hungarians with this sentence alone.
 
3. Emre is not a German name. Show me a German who has this name.  Emre-Irme, same thing.
 
4.Yes, everyone knows hungarians have mixed with other Europeans. Just like Turks have mixed with middle easterns. Just like Irish have mixed with English... is this supposed to be a newsflash?
 
Thumbs Up 
 
 
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

Back to Top
Raider View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 06-Jun-2005
Location: Hungary
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 804 		  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 08:49
Originally posted by Bulldog

1. From Asia? Conceivable, but there is no sufficient evidence. I personally beleive that Magyars originated from the European steppes.
 
Maybe you just don't want to accept that your national roots are Asian? There is a lot of sufficient evidence proving this infact most credible historians say this.
 
 
3. Naturally Imre is not a German name, but it comes from a German name. Do you know that both sons of St. Stephen were named in honour after Holy Roman emperors as Heinrich and Otto?
 
LOL Why are you still going on about this, its not a German or Germanic derrived name, proove your etymology theory please, it has already been proven the name Emre in Turkic languages is a Turk name, has a meaning in Turks languages and its syntax structure fits the language harmony rules.
 
Heinrich is a German version of the name Henry,
 
Pronounced: HEN-ree   [key]

From the Germanic name Heimerich which meant "home ruler", composed of the elements heim "home" and ric "power, ruler". This name was introduced into Britain by the Normans. It was borne by eight kings of England including the infamous Henry VIII, as well as six kings of France and seven kings of Germany. Other famous bearers include arctic naval explorer Henry Hudson, novelist Henry James, and automobile manufacturer Henry Ford.

http://www.behindthename.com/nmc/ger2.php  
 
The meaning, pronounciation, morphology "Hen-ree"-"Em-Reh" and etymology are not even remotely connected.
 
Well as you've said, your theory is "personal" and therefore subjective, there is nothing wrong with you having your views but there is no need to present them as facts.
 
 
Here is an example of a Hungarian that wants nothing to do with Turks or their Asian past. I am not one of them.
 
1. Hungarians are originally from Asia. They are Turan, and they have coexisted with Turkic tribes since the beginning times.
 
2. ". Attila:
Attila did not live in Hungary, Hungary did not existed when he lived.."
I cant believe you even would have the balls to write such crap! You are embarressing other Hungarians with this sentence alone.
 
3. Emre is not a German name. Show me a German who has this name.  Emre-Irme, same thing.
 
4.Yes, everyone knows hungarians have mixed with other Europeans. Just like Turks have mixed with middle easterns. Just like Irish have mixed with English... is this supposed to be a newsflash?
 
Thumbs Up 
 
 
1. Well Hungarian prehistory is still a mystery. Nevertheless I find the view of Denis Sinor quite convincing.
 
3. If you open any Hungarian dictionary, you will find the same etimology.
 
From medieval Hungary we know two Imres.
 
The son of St. Stephen, St Imre:
foreign sources (Annales of Altaich and Hildesheim) mention him as Heinricus
- the legenda maior of St. Stephen (XII., XIII. century ) names him as Henricus  in the XV. century he appears as Hemericus or Emericus.
- in the chronicle of Simon of Keza and the so-called Pressburg Chronicle call him: Emricus, Emiricus.
 
King Imre (1196-1204):
17 royal charters remained from his chancellery. 10 of them use his name as Hemericus, 4 of them as Emericus the in other it appear as Hemiricus, Henricus and Emricus. 
 
In my opinion this derivation is absolutely convincing. Though the German Heinrich is not the direct root of the Hungarian Imre. Its root is the name of prince Imre, who was quite popular saint.
Back to Top
Aster Thrax Eupator View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended

Suspended

Joined: 18-Jul-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1929 		  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 09:20
It has been proven, you are right Bulldog, that the Hungarians do have at least roots in central asia
Back to Top
Raider View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 06-Jun-2005
Location: Hungary
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 804 		  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 09:24
Originally posted by Earl Aster

It has been proven, you are right Bulldog, that the Hungarians do have at least roots in central asia
Then please inform me about these proofs! As far as I know it is not a solved question in historiography.
Back to Top
Aster Thrax Eupator View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended

Suspended

Joined: 18-Jul-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1929 		  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 09:29
This is what i picked up-
Back to Top
Raider View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 06-Jun-2005
Location: Hungary
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 804 		  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 09:41
Originally posted by Earl Aster

This is what i picked up-
Well in my opnion answers.com is quite unreliable and this article is begin with "a WARNING: Neutrality and factual accuracy of this article is disputed."
 
I recommend you to be cautious with every reference written by Bakay or Kiszely.
Back to Top
Bulldog View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 17-May-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 09:42
The son of St. Stephen, St Imre:
foreign sources (Annales of Altaich and Hildesheim) mention him as Heinricus
- the legenda maior of St. Stephen (XII., XIII. century ) names him as Henricus  in the XV. century he appears as Hemericus or Emericus.
- in the chronicle of Simon of Keza and the so-called Pressburg Chronicle call him: Emricus, Emiricus.
 
King Imre (1196-1204):
17 royal charters remained from his chancellery. 10 of them use his name as Hemericus, 4 of them as Emericus the in other it appear as Hemiricus, Henricus and Emricus.
 
This isn't a source and it doesn't proove anything either, I aleady established what the etymology and meaning of Heimerich was.
 
Pronounced: HEN-ree   [key]

From the Germanic name Heimerich which meant "home ruler", composed of the elements heim "home" and ric "power, ruler". This name was introduced into Britain by the Normans. It was borne by eight kings of England including the infamous Henry VIII, as well as six kings of France and seven kings of Germany. Other famous bearers include arctic naval explorer Henry Hudson, novelist Henry James, and automobile manufacturer Henry Ford.

http://www.behindthename.com/nmc/ger2.php  
 
This is not even remotely close to Emre and to suggest that Heimerich changed so many times then eventually the Turks took the name to Central Asia where they adopted this name just this name and no other German names or words. Its a very far-fetched theory to say the least.
 
Instead of trying to present your personal theories as objective fact it would be wiser to actually discover why historians refer to Hungarians roots as being Central Asian.
 
Why would everyone be lying, this isn't a conspiracy against you, its a reality. 


Edited by Bulldog - 20-Jul-2006 at 09:44
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

Back to Top
Raider View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 06-Jun-2005
Location: Hungary
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 804 		  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 09:55
Originally posted by Bulldog

The son of St. Stephen, St Imre:
foreign sources (Annales of Altaich and Hildesheim) mention him as Heinricus
- the legenda maior of St. Stephen (XII., XIII. century ) names him as Henricus  in the XV. century he appears as Hemericus or Emericus.
- in the chronicle of Simon of Keza and the so-called Pressburg Chronicle call him: Emricus, Emiricus.
 
King Imre (1196-1204):
17 royal charters remained from his chancellery. 10 of them use his name as Hemericus, 4 of them as Emericus the in other it appear as Hemiricus, Henricus and Emricus.
 
This isn't a source and it doesn't proove anything either, I aleady established what the etymology and meaning of Heimerich was.
 
Pronounced: HEN-ree   [key]

From the Germanic name Heimerich which meant "home ruler", composed of the elements heim "home" and ric "power, ruler". This name was introduced into Britain by the Normans. It was borne by eight kings of England including the infamous Henry VIII, as well as six kings of France and seven kings of Germany. Other famous bearers include arctic naval explorer Henry Hudson, novelist Henry James, and automobile manufacturer Henry Ford.

http://www.behindthename.com/nmc/ger2.php  
 
This is not even remotely close to Emre and to suggest that Heimerich changed so many times then eventually the Turks took the name to Central Asia where they adopted this name just this name and no other German names or words. Its a very far-fetched theory to say the least.
 
Instead of trying to present your personal theories as objective fact it would be wiser to actually discover why historians refer to Hungarians roots as being Central Asian.
 
Why would everyone be lying, this isn't a conspiracy against you, its a reality. 
Dear Bulldog!
 
Do you read what I write before? Angry
 
1. This is not a personal theory, but an academic. Exclamation
2. Who said that Heinrich and Turk Emre have a connection? I am continously speaking about a Hungarian name.
3. If medieval chronicles and charters are not source than tell me what is a source.Question
4. Ok. please inform me about these historians and why there theory is better than those historians who say else.
 
5. It is very interesting how many kings and Fords were named Henry, but I do not think it is relevant.Shocked
 
I simply do not understand why it is so difficult to beleive that the exact origin of the Hungarians is unknown and there are different theories and different "birthplaces". Confused
Back to Top
Bulldog View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 17-May-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 10:00
3. If medieval chronicles and charters are not source than tell me what is a source
 
Medievel Hungarians and their surroundings were mostly Christian, they would not have wanted to show the connection between Hungary's history and roots with the now muslim Turkic people/s.
 
Sources must be analysed aswell.
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1011121314 19>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.