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Ancient Macedonian language

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  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ancient Macedonian language
    Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 12:34

Arber, I have some questions to ask...

Why do you use different methods or theories to explain congener cases?
 
On the one hand, although Macedonians spoke greek, their original language wasn't the greek (although we don't have evidence) and they just adopted it.
 
On the other hand Arvanites, were Albanians because they spoke the albanian language, so there is no controversy about their original language or their ancestry.
 
Why?
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 12:35
Do you expect that inscriptions placed in public places, meant to describe boundaries, or appeals to the Gods or laws that the commoners should follow or royal decrees etc, would be written in a language that the vast majority of the population would be alien to?
 
Still we haven't addressed the issue: what was the language of these people?


Edited by Yiannis - 05-Jul-2006 at 12:36
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 12:38

I want to make my point more clear as about the segeration that had the Greeks as about the Barbarians  in Ancient Greek Linguistic

There are two sources
 
Isocrates
 And so far has our city distanced the rest of mankind in thought and in speech that her pupils have become the teachers of the rest of the world; and she has brought it about that the name Hellenes suggests no longer a race but an intelligence, and that the title Hellenes is applied rather to those who share our culture than to those who share a common blood[panygirika 50]
 
In the above quote you can see that Isocrates mention that the real Greeks were those that adopted the Greek culture and not those who share a common blood
 
Strabo
The term "barbarize," also, has the same origin; for we are wont to use this too in reference to those who speak Hellenic badly, not to those who talk Carian. So, therefore, we must interpret the terms "speak barbarously" and "barbarously-speaking" as applying to those who speak Hellenic badly. And it was from the term "Carise" that the term "barbarize" was used in a different sense in works on the art of speaking Hellenic; and so was the term "soloecise," whether derived from Soli, or made up in some other way
[14,II,28]
 
Clearly you can see that the barbarians also applied in those that speak bad Greek either were also Greeks by genus. Accusations of Macedonians being barbarians started in Athens and they were the result of political fabrications based on the Macedonian way of life and not on their ethnicity or language
 
 
Now arber is not only the usage of the Greek names by Macedonians that proove the usage from the a Greek dialect  but also and the Myths as descibed in my previous post.
 
Also despite the lack of Macedonian texts written in the local language the nature of Macedonian may be discerned from certain testimonia,  from about 100 surviving Macedonian words and from several hundred Macedonian names.


1) TESTIMONIA. There are three ancient pieces of indirect evidence of a conclusive nature:

a) in a scene from the attic comedy MACEDONIANS, by the fifth century writer Stattis, an Athenian asks "h sfyraina d' esti tis;" ('sledfish, what do you mean?') and a Macedonian replies "kestran men ymmes vttikoi iklhskete" ('wha ye Attics ca' a hammer-fush, ma freen') .

In order to appreciate the value of the Macedonian's reply for the problem under discussion we must not forget that as is clear from many passages in Aristophanes, the attic comedians made their non-Greeks speak broken Greek with an admixture of barbarian words (some of them imaginary) while Lacedaemonians, Megarians Boiotians and other Greeks spoke their own dialects.

The Macedonian's reply is in good Greek with dialect (ymes, sfyraina) and archaizing elements (kiklhskete)

b) Alexander the Great having selected thirty thousand Persian youths, gave an order that they were to "learn Greek letters and be trained in the use of Macedonian weapons". From this it may be deduced that the MAcedonian soldiers spoke Greek: It would be pointless to teach the young Persians who were to fight alongside the Macedonians a language that the Macedonians did not understand.

c) an ambassador from Macedonia speaking to the Aitolians in 200BC says of the Macedonians, the Aitolians and the Arkanians that they spoke the same language.

The expressions "aneboa makedonisti" "makedonisti th fvnh" klp have been taken by opponents of the thesis that the Macedonians were Greeks as indicating that their language differed from Greek; the supporters of this thesis declare that these formulation indicate a Greek dialect (cf "aiolizein th fvnh", "attikizei", "attikisti", "boivtiazein","dvrizein" etc). The expressions are in fact susceptible of either interpretation and cannot therefore be used to form part of the argumentation with which either is supported. Their sense will become clear after Maceonian has been shown to be Greek, or not, from other data
 
2) WORDS. Today, over 150 Macedonian words and a few hundred Macedonian names are known from a variety of sources. Although the names presuppose words, they will be examined separately for a number of methodological reasons.I will post it some of them soon
 
and there are more but  I will be tired
 
 


Edited by akritas - 05-Jul-2006 at 12:40
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 12:55

Here some Macedonian words

Aa.
A word used by the Alexandrians of the Makedonian era meaning any amount or water.

Abagna.
The ancient Makedonians were calling by this word the roses, and according to an older edition by Hsyxios the flower Amaranth.

Abarkna.
It appears on a hand written note by Hsyxios but appears as a certain mistakes regarding its orthography, making its interpretation a difficult one. Its first translation will be -koma- making it almost the same as --kwma-- =drinking getting drunk (methokopa in Greek).
But its other possible meaning from: Komw=let my hair growing.

Abary.
The Makedonian name for oregano.

Aghma.
Two meanings, the soldiers walking in front of a Royal proccession, and/or a special unit of the Makedonian army.
 
Skoidos.
Name of Makedonian Juror-Judge.
 
Pyklih.
Species of bread (Bathara)--(Pyrlos).
 
Millakes.
Young boys between 4-8 years old, co-players of the Royal children.

 
Korinatos.
The Bastards.
 
Kydar.
Grave, tomb.

 
Hrakleia.
The name of many Makedonian and other cities.
 

 


Edited by akritas - 05-Jul-2006 at 12:56
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 13:11
Akritas, did I understand you correctly, that these words are Macedonians but not other greek languages/dialects?
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 13:40
These words are Greek and belong in the ancient Macedonian language.

Edited by akritas - 05-Jul-2006 at 13:40
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 13:47
Originally posted by akritas

These words are Greek and belong in the ancient Macedonian language.
 
So, you mean that they were used in other dialects too? I would just ask to clarify this point.
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 13:54
Yes and No Anton.Had  Identified as Greek and some  belong to the Macedonian standalone and some others have roots from the others Greek dialects.
E.g. the word akrouno ('boundary stones' ) came from the attikan word kros.
 
or
 
rgella  that found  first in Sicely (attic) as rgilla


Edited by akritas - 05-Jul-2006 at 14:03
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  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 14:09
Originally posted by dorian

Arber, I have some questions to ask...

Why do you use different methods or theories to explain congener cases?
 
On the one hand, although Macedonians spoke greek, their original language wasn't the greek (although we don't have evidence) and they just adopted it.
 
On the other hand Arvanites, were Albanians because they spoke the albanian language, so there is no controversy about their original language or their ancestry.
 
Why?
 
 
I never said that the spoke greek or not, I just doubted on this. If they spoke greek in a certain period, then of course, in that period they were hellenes.
Prej heshtjes...!
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 15:34
Originally posted by dorian

So, although you are not interested about what Alexanders ethnicity was (you said that and you deleted it half an hour later)

The issue about Alexander's ethnicity was discussed in this thread, some might be interested to have a look:
 
 
you should read greek history (especially the history of Macedonians), if you want to post your opinion instead of posting texts from the FYROMian sites.

 
Ts,ts,ts ... As I pointed on many occasions before the Greeks do not have a monopoly on Balkan history so no need for Anton to read Greek history books in order to make educated suggestions. And the Macedonian (to which you condescendnigly refer to as Fyromian) point of view of the Ancient Macedonian language is as valid as the Greek view.
 
Anton has made some very valid points, and your suspicion of his intentions are totally unjustified. For those that defed real history in a scientific way there is no reason to fear the opposite point of view, because the best way to test the validity and thruthfulness of a theory is by challenging it with counter-theories. But as usual all we see are attempts to preach the Greek dogma on the ancient Macedonian language.
 
To me this thread just seems like another attempt to desperately prove the ancient Macedonian language was Greek.
 


Edited by bg_turk - 05-Jul-2006 at 15:40
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 15:53
Originally posted by bg_turk

To me this thread just seems like another attempt to desperately prove the ancient Macedonian language was Greek.
 
Do you have any serious against argyment as about this ""desperately thread"" or is another   speculation without prooves?  


Edited by akritas - 05-Jul-2006 at 15:54
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 16:12
Originally posted by akritas

Do you have any serious against argyment as about this ""desperately thread"" or is another   speculation without prooves?  
 
I presented my sources and opinion in the thread below, and so have you. In fact many of the things in your post above, can be found in the thread below. 
 
 
If by "serious arguments" you mean arguments that support your point of view on the Macedonians, no I do not have them.
 
Some Macedonians would claim that Ancient Macedonian was a slavic language. Of course such allegations are utter garbage.
 
But most historians and classicists would also strongly doubt the Greek claims that they spoke Greek or were ethnically Greek.
 
Ancient Macedonians (like the Thracians) may have used the Greek script or they might have even borrowed some Greek vocabulary, but this in no way proves that their language was Greek. My view was and still remains that Macedonians, although they gradually incorporated aspects of Greek culture in their own society, maintained a distinct ethnic and linguistic identity as a Balkan people, a view that is also shared by Prof. Borza of Harvard University and many others. With some familiarity of the more recent Balkan history it is not too hard to see what really lies behind the Greek claims on Ancient Macedonian history and language.
 
 


Edited by bg_turk - 05-Jul-2006 at 16:15
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 16:58
I shall remind you that the name of the thread  is the ancient Macedonian language. Your mentioned  thread was a debate as about the ethnicity of them.You compared the Thracian language (4 inscriptions) with the Macedonian (3000 inscriptions) but you didn't tell us that the Thracian did not has take  any classification as about its origin when the Macedonian took it. So do you have any argyment (inscription,  language characteristics e.t.c) that proove your claim or is another one speculation?
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 17:31
Originally posted by akritas

I shall remind you that the name of the thread  is the ancient Macedonian language. Your mentioned  thread was a debate as about the ethnicity of them.
akritas,
 
You do realize that ethnicity and language, in particular in the Balkans, are closely related. If you prove the Macedonian language Greek, or vice versa you would have done the same for ethnicity. It is precisely because of that thaty I think this thread is redundant and I would not be surprised if it evolves towards being a duplication of the other threads.
 
The language of the Macedonians is discusses here:
(which I have no doubt you will dismiss as "fyromian" propaganda, but maybe the more open minded readers can have a look)
 
I will paste an interesting article by Von Otto Hoffmann.


Edited by bg_turk - 05-Jul-2006 at 17:33
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 17:37
I prefer to wait your Hoffman article bg_turk
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 17:41
Although the author of this article considers Macedonian to be a Greek "dialect", he does also suggest that it was incomprehensible to the other Greeks. I think one of the prime requirements of two spoken dialects to be a member of a single language is their mutual comprehesibility. Apparently that was lackin in the case of Macedonian and Greek.
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 17:52
Originally posted by bg_turk

 
Although the author of this article considers Macedonian to be a Greek "dialect", he does also suggest that it was incomprehensible to the other Greeks. I think one of the prime requirements of two spoken dialects to be a member of a single language is their mutual comprehesibility. Apparently that was lackin in the case of Macedonian and Greek.
LOLLOLLOL
Please read the previous posts and you will unnderstand why the Greek Macedonian dialect consider as barbarian from the others Greeks!!!!
And one more think. The half of them have as source the Otto Hoffman LOLLOL
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 17:53

Friends, could we first collect all linguistical points of view, then some archeological data and historical sources? I, actually, hoped that we could collect all points in one post at the end but such coordination between hot balcanic nations seems to be impossible Ouch   But I support BG_turk that it is difficult to use only linguistical analysis in such question...

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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 17:57
Here is a piece of evidence in support of the thesis that Macedonian was NOT Greek:
 

Yet in a curious way, this passage comes to contradict another by the same author in the same document (VI.9.34-36.) Alexander asks if Philotas will speak in the language of their fathers,

    "... Macedones ... de te indicaturi sunt, quero an patrio sermone sis apud eos usurus," "... the Macedonians who will judge you, I ask if you will use the language of [our] fathers with them,"


and elicited the response:

    "Praeter Macedonas ... plerique adsunt, quos facilius quae dicam percep-turus arbitror, si eadem lingua fuero usus qua tu egisti, non ob aliud, credo quam ut oratio tua intellegi posset a pluribus,"
    "[Above and] beyond the Macedonians ... there are many present whom, I feel, will more easily grasp the things I say if I use the same language you did, for no other reason, I believe, than that your speech might be understood by many."

This explanation caused the angry remarks of Alexander that Philotas neglects to speak in the language of their fathers:

    "Ecquid videtis adeo etiam sermonis patrii Philotan toedere? Solus quippe fastidit eum discere. Sed dicat sane utcumque ei cordi est, dum memineritis aeque ilium a nostro more quam sermone abhorrere,"
    "Have you ever seen Philotas reject the language of [our] fathers heretofore? Indeed, he alone is averse to learning it. Let him then say, however, it is in his heart, since you will remember that he is opposed to our custom[s] as well as our language."

Ms. Panagiotou's article proceeds to attempt to explain this passage as referring to a northern Hellenic dialect so greatly at variance with the contemporary Koine that it might just as well have been a foreign language. Her attempt falls short of convincing.

 
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 18:17
Originally posted by bg_turk

 
Some Macedonians would claim that Ancient Macedonian was a slavic language. Of course such allegations are utter garbage.
Your above statement and  your  latter link is desperate attempt by you in order to support your claim as about the ancient Macedonian language.Your link is a utter garbage as you said.
 
So agree or not that the ancient Macedonian language was a Proto - (West) Slavic as the author of your link claim ?
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