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Arvanitic, a dying language

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Arbr Z View Drop Down
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  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Arvanitic, a dying language
    Posted: 05-Aug-2006 at 11:32

Akritas, finally you made a joke, and I admit that I like that, it shows that things calmed down in our disscussion. I dont' want to have a flamewar on any issue, and I am sure that you agree with me on this point.

Now, the language is an important part of a culture, a very important part. Before I was talking about the dresses, but you said that was a delirium. Theodore Felix also posted some interesting facts about the organization of the arvanite villages, which are very similar to the albanian villages in their urbanistic shape, less developed than the greek-hellene traditional villages (cause you see, I admit that the hellenes were traditionally more developed culturally, thats why I admire their culture). And you can see in the link posted by Theodore Felix some data from the university of Ohio. I do not want to provide albanian links, as in this case they would not be appropriate, same as the greek links. You see, we have been disscussing also other parts of the culture, but remember, we are on the linguistic forum. Anyway, think about it, language is an important part of the culture, if not the most important part of ethnic culture and tradition. If the greek language would have been loosed during the centuries, now you probably would call yourself romio, and in the debates with the FYROMIANS, as you sometimes call them, you would feel a bit weaker. But thank god, the greek language still exists and is flourishing, as an incontestable proof for the continuous hellenic culture in that area of the balkans.

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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2006 at 04:00
Originally posted by Arbr Z

the words in bold letters above are completely mistaken
Yes proffessor.Can I have a chance to the next semester please ?LOL
Originally posted by Arbr Z

Learn some arvanitic first, then try to learn some albanian. You already know greek (I suppose), so I guess that you can compare yourself and come to the results you need about the origin or the belonging of the language
You spoke for common culture between Arvaniton and Albanians and you diverse it in the language again.I say again that the Arvantic dialect belong to the Albanian.I hope this cover up your albanianism.
Still waiting to show me the common links!!!
Remind you the official Arvantic page  not state any connection with the Albanian culture.
 
 
If you don't have links or argyments  just remain in the topic (you opened it) that consern the Arvanitic language and not the migration or the culture of them.
 
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  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 20:08
 
I apologize when I doing I mistake.In this case I don't see any reason to apologize in your "polite"  delirioum and tinge of irony DEAR
 
the words in bold letters above are completely mistaken.
 
  
Why the Arvantikos syllogos mention Arvanitic culture and not Albanian?
Can you show me related Albanian sites in order to compare with the Arbanitic page? Dear
 
Learn some arvanitic first, then try to learn some albanian. You already know greek (I suppose), so I guess that you can compare yourself and come to the results you need about the origin or the belonging of the language
 
Now understand your perfect English dear
 
My english might not be perfect, and you can probably find errata in my posts, but at least I use pronouns, and I do know when to use the word "dear". I do not want to discuss personal things with you, actually you made yourself clear perfectly. If you have something to discuss on the topic then I ll answer, if not, go on, I thought you were a bit older and you knew how to behave.
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 12:40
Originally posted by Arbr Z

Now we are starting to discuss, I see, but you should apologize for the delirium!
I apologize when I doing I mistake.In this case I don't see any reason to apologize in your "polite"  delirioum and tinge of irony DEAR
Originally posted by Arbr Z

We do not have the asme culture dear, and I dont have the same culture with my albanian friend in the next seat. The arvanites have a culture which belongs to the broader albanian culture. I have ever met arvanites, in greece. And not only one. But I admitt it, I have not met all of them. And yes, I have also read about their culture, is that prohibited? Try to make a little research, and you will see that this strange relation between arvanites and albanians is not mentioned just somewhere in the "albanian nationalistic" forums and websites.
 
 
Why the Arvantikos syllogos mention Arvanitic culture and not Albanian?
Can you show me related Albanian sites in order to compare with the Arbanitic page? Dear
 
Originally posted by Arbr Z

Ok, I meant that in google I found this arvanite village called kriekouki - which means redhaired in albanian
Now understand your perfect English dear
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  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 12:06
Now we are starting to discuss, I see, but you should apologize for the delirium!
 
Did you ever met Arvaniti in order to compare your traditional cultures? Or you read somewhere that you have the same culture
 
We do not have the asme culture dear, and I dont have the same culture with my albanian friend in the next seat. The arvanites have a culture which belongs to the broader albanian culture. I have ever met arvanites, in greece. And not only one. But I admitt it, I have not met all of them. And yes, I have also read about their culture, is that prohibited? Try to make a little research, and you will see that this strange relation between arvanites and albanians is not mentioned just somewhere in the "albanian nationalistic" forums and websites.
 
 
That arvanites speak a albanian dialect nobody denies that.The problem is the origin.
 
What is the problems with their origin? Read the posts of Theodore Felix, make your own research and come with your own contribution. If they spoke an albanian dialect till now, that means something doesnt it?
 
 
Searching the google I found this arvanite language called kriekouki - which means redhaired (alb kryekuqi/kryekuchi).
 
Where you find it??
 
Ok, I meant that in google I found this arvanite village called kriekouki - which means redhaired in albanian
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 11:49
Originally posted by Arbr Z

I am saying that the traditional culture of the arvanites is albanian, or a branch of albanian traditional culture
Did you ever met Arvaniti in order to compare your traditional cultures? Or you read somewhere that you have the same culture
Originally posted by Arbr Z

enough strangely, all this words have an exact meaning in albanian, but no, there is no chance that they could be albanian
That arvanites speak a albanian dialect nobody denies that.The problem is the origin.
Originally posted by Arbr Z

  Can I have an english translation of the above sentence?
 
Searching the google I found this arvanite language called kriekouki - which means redhaired (alb kryekuqi/kryekuchi).
 
 
Where you find it??
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  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 11:16
Originally posted by akritas

Arber you continue to say that Arvanites were Albanians, now you mention that modern Greek culture is not Greek and you continue your delirium with the dress. So please stay in the topic and live out your albanianism.

I am saying that the traditional culture of the arvanites is albanian, or a branch of albanian traditional culture. And I never said that the modern greek culture is not greek, but with apparently the delirium is subject of someone else. Read my post, and quote it, I said that the modern urban culture is not traditional greek , friends here mentioned that many dialects of greek are dissapearing, the costumes are also fading, and the traditional dresses, you can see them only in the expos. Also the everyday life in Athens, it looks like the everyday in Rome or in Madrid, or in Istambul, New York London etc. The traditional is dying my lovely, openminded and polite greek mate, I would never dare to say that a concept (like culture) which stays in the same phrase with the word "greek" is not greek. All the world knows the reality, whatever is connected with greek has to be, and indeed is hellene.
 
Kriekouki(also called a place near in Athens)  is the name of the Arvaniti that died in the  the conquest(from the Venetians)  of Nicosia in Cyprus at the 1571 . Arvanites fought also there against the Turks, in the side of the Venetians.
 
I am talking exactly about that place, and btw if you want to use english the plural of arvanite is arvanites, not arvaniti *latin would be like that 
 
Amongst the many names of his comrades, he mentions Kriekouki, Liopesi, Schimatari, Mazi, Rampntosa, Kokla. All of these names are nowadays names of villages.
 
enough strangely, all this words have an exact meaning in albanian, but no, there is no chance that they could be albanian
 
There are two versions: Either the Venetians had given earlier these villages to these warriors, or they came from these villages. By both versions we know that Kriekouki must have been inhabited by Arvanites before 1571. The meaning of the word Kriekouki is red-headed or red-haired as you said.
 
Thank you for accepting the truth in my words
 
Where you find that Kriekouki called the Arvanitic language?
 
Can I have an english translation of the above sentence?
Please do not accuse me of delirium, or whatsoever. I have never offended personally you, or your nation and your culture. Moderate yourself.
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 10:56

Arber you continue to say that Arvanites were Albanians, now you mention that modern Greek culture is not Greek and you continue your delirium with the dress. So please stay in the topic and live out your albanianism.

Kriekouki(also called a place near in Athens)  is the name of the Arvaniti that died in the  the conquest(from the Venetians)  of Nicosia in Cyprus at the 1571 . Arvanites fought also there against the Turks, in the side of the Venetians.

Amongst the many names of his comrades, he mentions Kriekouki, Liopesi, Schimatari, Mazi, Rampntosa, Kokla. All of these names are nowadays names of villages.

There are two versions: Either the Venetians had given earlier these villages to these warriors, or they came from these villages. By both versions we know that Kriekouki must have been inhabited by Arvanites before 1571. The meaning of the word Kriekouki is red-headed or red-haired as you said.
 
Where you find that Kriekouki called the Arvanitic language?
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  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 09:46

Blond, and red hair are common phenotypes in albania, specially in the rural areas or in the highlands, which, as it is historically known, were less affected by invasions and occupations. Dark haired people are originally from the cities, the urban areas and from the lowlands. Is the same about the arvanites. Searching the google I found this arvanite language called kriekouki - which means redhaired (alb kryekuqi/kryekuchi). The traditional culture of the arvanites is very similar to the albanians (note, I m not talking about the modern urban culture in Greece, which is not even greek traditional, but western). The arvanites clothe the same as the albanians, they use the fustanellas with 400 or more pieces, they use the white, the red, the black and the gold in their suits, the same as albanians (as Lord Byron noticed in Childe Harold). The arvanites do care (traditionally) about their looks, the moustache, the hair etc, same as the traditional albanians. They practiced the same social rules as the albanians, they had vendetta etc.  

By the way, who was this arvanitokthone?
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  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 19:17
Some historians have argued that the Malakasians were not Albanians but nomadic vlachs of Albania.I don't know however the evidence on which they base this claim.


I never heard of that Cantacuzene specifically says they were ALbanian.

Here is a quote from his account:

While the emperor was staying in Thessaly, the unruly Albanians living in the Thessalian mountains appeared before him who, according to their tribal leaders, are called Malakasians, Buians and Mesarites and whose numbers reach 12,000. They paid homage to the emperor and promised to serve him, for they were afraid of being annihilated by the Byzantines at the onset of winter, living as they do, not in towns, but in the mountains and in inaccessible regions. Since they must abandon these regions in the winter due to the cold and snow, which falls in incredible amounts in such vicinities, they believed that they would easily fall prey to them.


[/quote]The relations between the Arvanites and the Despotate of Epirus were not really good.One of the Despots of Epirus had killed so many Albanians that acquired for himself the nickname Arvanitoktonos(albanian-killer).[/quote]

The relations between the two deteriorated due to the shifty attitude of the Arvanites. By the end the constant Alb raids were the very reason for the eventual fall of the Despotate.

As far as their appearance is concerned,I can say from my experience that some ,very few, have blond hair but in a scandinavian way,(we have blond people in Greece but not so blond).But most of them look like the rest of us,dark-haired.
Many Albanian that i have seen here in Greece are also dark-haired and dark-skinned.


lol, they must probably have come with some slavic blood. There are many Albanians around the Prespa in the eastern border between FYROM and Greece that look like that. That was a region once very populated with slavs.

    

Edited by Theodore Felix - 03-Aug-2006 at 19:18
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  Quote Konstantis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 16:40
Originally posted by Theodore Felix

   


Arvanities(Arbanitas) started making their first entrace into the Greek populated part of the Balkans are the 12th century they started entering the regions of Epirus. By the 13th various tribes had started populating in the mountains in Macedonia(tribes named: Malakasians , LOL , Buians and Mesarites)Emperor John VI Cantacuzene wrote about the accounts of the skirmishes against them. By around that time too in Epirus the Comnenos dynasty made a pact with them in the formation of the Despotate of Epirus. I have seen some Arvanities and they look very much like Greeks. But considering they have been there for about 600 years its not surprise. They are also heavily influenced by 400 years of Ottoman millet, a close attachment to the Greek culture due to the link to religion. So its no surprise. 

    
 
 
Some historians have argued that the Malakasians were not Albanians but nomadic vlachs of Albania.I don't know however the evidence on which they base this claim.
The relations between the Arvanites and the Despotate of Epirus were not really good.One of the Despots of Epirus had killed so many Albanians that acquired for himself the nickname Arvanitoktonos(albanian-killer).Later they were invited by the catalans of Athens to settle in Attica and by the Despot of Moreas to settle the region of Pelopponesos.
Today they are an integral part of the modern Greek nation.They are "pure" modern Greeks.
As far as their appearance is concerned,I can say from my experience that some ,very few, have blond hair but in a scandinavian way,(we have blond people in Greece but  not so blond).But most of them look like the rest of us,dark-haired.
Many Albanian  that i have seen here in Greece are also dark-haired and dark-skinned.
 
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  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2006 at 07:50
Actually Teddy I have read that article from OhioUn before, and it gave me this idea.
About the malakasians, they were from region of Mallakaster in albania, where today live the Mallakastriotes. Mallakaster - Malum - Castro - BadCastle.
 
As about the arvanites, it is true, they emigrated southwards (to greece) between the XI and the XVI century. Even in the christian formula that you provide, there is a striking similarity between arvanitika (arberisht) and certain variants of today's Tosk in southern albania. But what makes me curious are some similarities between arvanitika and Gheg, which is the northern dialect. Apparently there were also Gheg albanians emigrating to greece in those years, or very probably, the difference between tosk and gheg was smoother. In the first printed book in albanian (Meshari from Gjon Buzuku), I saw similarities with tosk too, even though the book is in mediaeval gheg. Probably the gheg and the tosk were not differing much, actually I believe that they started deepening the gap only during the ottoman ocupation. In albania, after some revolts against the occupators, the land was divided in smaller regions, which people were not allowed to interact freely. The same happened with the arvanites, who were isolated from the rest of the albanianspeaking communities, and developed their own dialect. It is very interesting, and I do believe that their language and culture should be studied and documentated carefully in details.
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  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2006 at 22:41
    The interesting thing about the Arvanities is also their village structure. Between the more advanced Christian people the tendency was to have a town centered around a main church, which could also be fortified. The Arvaniti seemed to have taken straight out of the much less organized Albanian method. In our traditional villages there is no real center of administration all are clumped.

Another interesting thing I noticed is that many of their names have not translated into Greek. For instance take the last name Kolias. It comes from the Albanian name for Nicholas, Shen(Saint) Kol, Nasos(Nasho) from Athananos, Lekkas(Leka) from Alexsandros, Dhimas(original Alb is Dhima) from Dimistris, Tsolias(Tsoli) from Apostolos, Tilis from Sotiros.

Funny is that these very older versions are getting replaced even in modern Albanian. For instance people dont use Leka anymore but Alexander and Tili has been replaced with the more accurate Sotir and Nasos with Athanas. In southern Albanian region of Himare you could find these names among the other.

Arvanities(Arbanitas) started making their first entrace into the Greek populated part of the Balkans are the 12th century they started entering the regions of Epirus. By the 13th various tribes had started populating in the mountains in Macedonia(tribes named: Malakasians , LOL , Buians and Mesarites)Emperor John VI Cantacuzene wrote about the accounts of the skirmishes against them. By around that time too in Epirus the Comnenos dynasty made a pact with them in the formation of the Despotate of Epirus. By the 14 and 15 century they were welcomed into Attica and the Pelopenese by the emperor of the last dynasty as a defensive manuever against Turkish raids in the area and to counter the depopulation in the region. Many of the forces went under the service of the venetians and eventually left Mani for southern Italy, a significant others stayed. In George Sphritzanes history you can get a pretty good picture of the general bias and dissatisfaction the natives had with the people there considering them to be "... the base and most useless race..."(Sphratzes)
Around this late period these is small change in the general populations occupancy. Whereas the settled civilized Greeks were settled and well to do farmers, these men were mostly shepherds. It does not constitute as a displacement, not at all(just to make sure some people don't think Im hinting at that). Most of these Albanians were indeed recruited in the south Albania in mixture, parts were Greeks part were Albanians. According to the Mnemeia Hellenikes Historias: Documents inedits a l'histoire de la Grece au Moyen Age, edited by Konstantinos Sathas, the vast majority of these stradioti were infact Albanians. Many came from the region of Himare and moved on afterwards to south Italy(the Arberesh settlement Piana Degli Albanese in Sicily was founded by settlers from this region).

I have seen some Arvanities and they look very much like Greeks. But considering they have been there for about 600 years its not surprise. They are also heavily influenced by 400 years of Ottoman millet, a close attachment to the Greek culture due to the link to religion. So its no surprise.

I have to say however that the ideas that they were infact already of Greek origin is very doubtful and most likely led on by modern social relations between the two nations.

Another interesting factor of the Arvanities is that the long use of the Greek alphabet has morphed the speech itself. The Greek alphabet lacks the proper letters to form all the various sounds in the Albanian language. But considering the tie to Orthodoxy, it was the only path so the language itself changed itself to fit the language...

   This is for Arber, you can see the difference:   
    
Wikipedia has a very good article. The Ohio university also has a good article on this...
   
    

Edited by Theodore Felix - 01-Aug-2006 at 23:53
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  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 14:06
Well, if in albania they consider themselves Albanian citizens of Vlach ethnicity, this is their right. And if they say that they are linguistically and ethnically near to the romanians, this is their feeling and it should be respected. What is the point of telling them what they are, and who they are near to?I could say they are albanian, and they have indeed many elements of albanian culture in their language as well as in their folk, but I leave them decide which culture they belong. Anyway, this thread is about the arvanite language.
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 09:43
Originally posted by xristar

I meant the Vlachs of Albania. I don't know if they considered themselves related to Romanians, but in Greece we include them to 'our' minority.
 
The Vlachs don't have a single national identity. I know that Romania has tried in the past to create a Romanian national consciousness in the Vlachs, and has succeeded to some part (Italy also helped a lot in WWII, creating a vlachic duchy in Greece!). Most Vlachs of Greece feel Greeks, but not all of them. I don't know about the albanian Vlachs, I don't know what influences they have had. But as I said, in Greece we consider tehm our people. We also consider Greeks the Vlachs of Fyrom and Bulgaria.


In Greece they prefer like the Roms to call themselves Greek. Most of them at least. I have to say they make lovely food hehe.


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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 07:32
I meant the Vlachs of Albania. I don't know if they considered themselves related to Romanians, but in Greece we include them to 'our' minority.
 
The Vlachs don't have a single national identity. I know that Romania has tried in the past to create a Romanian national consciousness in the Vlachs, and has succeeded to some part (Italy also helped a lot in WWII, creating a vlachic duchy in Greece!). Most Vlachs of Greece feel Greeks, but not all of them. I don't know about the albanian Vlachs, I don't know what influences they have had. But as I said, in Greece we consider tehm our people. We also consider Greeks the Vlachs of Fyrom and Bulgaria.

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  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2006 at 21:01
Originally posted by xristar

Vlachs are also (considered) Greeks.
 
I was referring to the vlachs of Albania, and believe me, they do not consider themselves greek, the speek vlach in their homes, most of them dont know greek (they all speak albanian very fluently, differently from the hellenes they have no difficulty in pronouncing albanian language), and they consider themselves as primarily related to the romanians. Probably you were talking about the vlachs of greece, but thats another issue I guess. They are cousins but...
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2006 at 15:01
Vlachs are also (considered) Greeks.

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  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2006 at 08:14
Originally posted by Flipper

Originally posted by Arbr Z


Anyway, I still think something should be done to prevent this languages from disappearing. In albania we provide instruction in greek language until high school, and you can study hellenic culture in Tirana University -philologic sciences faculty. So I dont believe greek is gonna be lost in albania (fortunately)


Very interesting...I didn't know. On the other side you can see that Greeks that moved from Albania to Greece after the form of the state changed, were speaking fluetly (maybe not all ofcourse) which must have something to do with education as well not just talking the language at home.
 
Actually any albanian citizen of the greek minority is fluent in greek, as also in the communism era they had the right (actually the duty) to be educated in their language. All of them know albanian, but most of them are not very fluent in standard (problems with pronounciation aparently). Regarding those who declare themselves as vorioepeirotes, believe me, not all of them belong to the respected greek community. Some of them are just albanians or vlach from albania who declare themselves as greek to enjoy some benefits (in the greek universities or in work).Thats why some of them are not fluent in greek (but they will become Big smile albanians learn very well and fastly foreign languages)
 
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2006 at 08:03
Originally posted by Arbr Z


Anyway, I still think something should be done to prevent this languages from disappearing. In albania we provide instruction in greek language until high school, and you can study hellenic culture in Tirana University -philologic sciences faculty. So I dont believe greek is gonna be lost in albania (fortunately)


Very interesting...I didn't know. On the other side you can see that Greeks that moved from Albania to Greece after the form of the state changed, were speaking fluetly (maybe not all ofcourse) which must have something to do with education as well not just talking the language at home.


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