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Word "Aryan" is priced becoz of its Indic(Hindu)

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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Word "Aryan" is priced becoz of its Indic(Hindu)
    Posted: 01-Jul-2007 at 02:52
Is there anything in Avestan that is arguably similar to this style? 
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2007 at 11:06
No.  The Avesta is a book of hymns, hence its style is purely religious in nature.  Its phraseology mainly praises Ahura Mazda and associated deities, as well as of illustrious heroes and their epic battles against monsters and demons.  It should be better compared to the Rg Veda.  Darius writes in an inscriptional style, in the first person, declaring who he is, his titles, his ancestry, and his deeds.  This style is Mesopotamian in origin.
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2007 at 18:02
This style of Mesopotamian origin... and, I'm trying not to be unreasonable, here...  But, this style appears to be a compartamentalized versian of what I know of the Avestan vision.

Assyrian:  "Esarhaddon, the Great King, the mighty king, king of the universe, king of Assria, viceroy of Babylon, king of Sumer and Akkad, son of Senacherib, the Great King, the mighty king of Assyria, son of Sargon, the Great king, the mighty king, king of Assyria..."

Zardusht-Aspa-Airya-Prana:"I...  spoke with my forefather, Mazda... God... There was a deceiver...  I converted deceivers into believers...a preserver...a savior....a Shoyashant... will come"


Edited by mojobadshah - 01-Jul-2007 at 18:42
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2007 at 00:48
I do not see any similarities between your two examples at all, except that they are in the first person.  Let's analyse:
 
Assyrian:
1. Introduction
    a. Name of the king.
    b. Titles of king
2. King's ancestry
 
Avestan:
1. Introduction
    a. Pronoun introduction only
2. Deeds
    a. Prayer
    b. other deeds
3. Prophecy?
 
No, I don't see any similarities.


Edited by Sharrukin - 02-Jul-2007 at 00:49
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2007 at 10:00
Assyrian:
1. Introduction
    a. Name of the king.
    b. Titles of king
2. King's ancestry
 
I see what you're saying.  Let me do this again.


Avestan:
1. Introduction
a. I, Zoroaster
b. "God"
2. son of Mazda, Marde, Airya etc...

I know what you mean though.



Edited by mojobadshah - 03-Jul-2007 at 10:13
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2007 at 20:27
In order to meet the "style" qualification, all the elements must be in the same context within the thought given in the text.  Getting elements from all over the text does not count.  Can you please cite a very specific Avestan text where all the elements can be detected to be compared with the Assyrian or at least the royal Old Persian texts? 
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  Quote Shane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2007 at 13:51
I don't mean to intrude in the middle of a discussion, but earlier in the topic, there was a debate about Aryan features and such.  I just have a few questions if you believe that the ancient Aryans had blond hair and blue eyes.  If that is the case, then why, if the Muslim invasions had virtually no genetic impact, do current day Iranians look the way they do?  Usually, the typical Northern Iranian has light skin (that tans easily), dark hair, and dark eyes.  The Souther Iranian has dark, dark skin, dark hair, and dark eyes as well.   The most dominant genetic impact that I think Iran had was with the Greeks....now I don't know what the typical Greek looks like, but I presume that they may somewhat look partially Iranian?  Both of my parents are Northern Iranians, and can trace their family lineage back to about 2 more generations, all in Northern Iran (Tehran).  I have been mistakened for being Italian, Greek, and sometimes even Israeli.  I have dark hair and dark eyes, but by skin is white in the winter, and tanned in the summer.  The only people who recognize me as a Persian are Persians themselves.  So my question is, if the Aryans were blond and blue eyed, what happened to such features? I know that no race is no longer pure, and your typical Iranian is probably full of genetic mixtures, but I am just curious. Maybe I have some Greek ancestors up along the way, or Arab?...who knows.



PS:  Sorry if I'm lacking knowledge in the subject.  I found this forum at about 5 AM this morning.  I will search previous topics as well.
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 00:44
What relevance does racial rivalries, differences (eg. stereotypically white/black) have to do with Aryan intel?  The way I see it.  One could bear any of the biological traits of a human, but identified as an Aryan, given that the national intellectual heritaj of their nativity, their national identity, or national ancestry, is Aryan eg. Afghanistan (ancient Aryana), Iran, Tajekistan, Pathanistan in Pakistan, Kurdish, or Parsi.




Edited by mojobadshah - 07-Jul-2007 at 00:48
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  Quote Shane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 01:31
You are right, mojo. You opened up a new door for me into welcoming more open thought, but I was curious just about features of Aryans...whether the inhabitants of that area still do look similar to the Aryans of years ago, you know?  The fact is, I'm just wondering whether it is, indeed, possible for a Greek trait from a distant ancestor of mine could follow generations and not appear until me?  I'm not singling myself out nor am I saying that I have a Greek ancestor, but I'm just curious if it is possible that a trait has withheld itself for some time, only to appear later in life, causing genetic confusion.
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 16:53
I have notions of an out of Africa theory to this Irano-Aryan central Eurasia, and a migration from there to the Americas. 

I do have notions of a "nearer" genetic kinship among the gentiles, Japhet...  or  Indo-European speakers based on the study of genes.  As far as my notions of genetics, given that any of you're ancestors bear the gene, you bear the gene, too.  From an anthropological perspective, first off, the Irano-Aryan speaking zone is in the center of several non-Indo-European speaking zones.  The Altaic Turkik-Mongols to the north.  The Sinno-Tibetans to the east.  The Dardic to the south.   Europe, and Arabia to the west.  Its like an ancient America or melting pot as they say.  There was millenium of intermixing in the "Old World" before the "New Worlds," North America, South America, Australia, etc...

Edited by mojobadshah - 07-Jul-2007 at 17:06
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 23:17
The problem with the notion of an "Aryan" or "Greek" gene is that of what value do we put to it?  Is it supposed to be understood in physical terms (i.e. blond hair, blue eyes, etc), or just simply a specific haplogroup?  Remember, when we are talking about haplogroups, we are not really talking about physical characteristics, just lineages.  Physical characteristics change within a lineage.   On the other hand, the notion that there is something that physically distinguishes a Greek or an Aryan from any other "population" has been largely elusive.  It was a form of extreme Eurocentrism that put a physical value to the idea of the "pure Aryan".  It continues to be a 19th century way of thinking that assumes that language coincides with physical characteristics, or that an historic designation of a people represents some physical type.
 
As models of pastoral societies suggest, they are characterized by being inclusive, allowing new members into their society regardless of origin, hence, if the Aryans, themselves came from the steppes, by the time they entered either Iran or India, they were already of various origins.  Speaking about an "Aryan" type makes no sense whatsoever. 
 
The same with the Greeks.  Most of their gene-pool was Paleolithic in origin, hence if the introduction of Indo-European into the population was of Eneolithic date, there would be very little difference between the "Greeks" before the introduction of Indo-European, and after. 
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2007 at 05:29
In the U.S. there are, indeed, notions of a Ku Klax circle.  The ancient Aryan form of this artistic mark is chaxra caraiti "chariot circle." However, I bear, no notions of even one genuine Aryan or Iranian member by national ancestry.   
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jul-2007 at 03:12
I don't think any notion of "circle" in Ku Klux symbology has anything to do with  "chariot circles".  The very name Ku Klux may have come from the Greek word kyklos, meaning "circle" but in Klan usage probably meant in the sense of a "gathering", or "assembly".
 
I'm not familiar with the "chaxra caraiti".  Do you have a picture of one?  The only true Aryan symbol I'm familiar with is the swastika.
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jul-2007 at 12:26
There was a motion picture called Alexander, recently, of Darius's chariot circle...  Can you think of one?  The swastika is an Aryan symbol.  I know of Sanskrit forms.  And, is akin to the word sinistorse, the opposite of dextorse.  Does anyone know any Iranian forms? 

As far as the, anomaly, clan... my sources tell me it is akin to words like Av. fratha Eng. field Grk. polis, and, plan.   

Edited by mojobadshah - 09-Jul-2007 at 12:28
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2007 at 02:01

There was a motion picture called Alexander, recently, of Darius's chariot circle...  Can you think of one?

I don't find anything to suggest the "chariot circle" in Alexander.  The most reoccuring theme is the winged figure of Ahura Mazda.
 
The swastika is an Aryan symbol.  I know of Sanskrit forms.  And, is akin to the word sinistorse, the opposite of dextorse.
 
Akin in what way?  Swastika means "to be well", or "well being" 
 
Does anyone know any Iranian forms?
 
As a matter of fact, the Iranian Zoroastrians used the swastika.  It was either called the the revolving sun (Garduneh-e Khorshid), or Mithra's Wheel (Garduneh-e Mehr).  In its Indo-Aryan context, it may have originated in central Asia, from the Sintashta Culture (c. 2200-1600 BC) of the Andronovo Complex, since the symbol was found on an Sintashtan cauldron.

As far as the, anomaly, clan... my sources tell me it is akin to words like Av. fratha Eng. field Grk. polis, and, plan.
 
Please explain.   
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2007 at 18:36
I recall that winged Zoroastrian figure, too.  Why did they do that?  The word Swastika in several etymology sources points to cognates of this form such as words like is, essence, sentence, stream, sin, [Bodi]satva or "Hellense," etym[ology], sativa, etc...  Apparently, Swastika is a loanword to the Germans.  They called it some German anomaly I can't recall.  Adolf, converted the sinnistorse Swastika dextorse.  Is the Garduneh-e-Khorshid counterclockwise or clockwise?  
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2007 at 21:55
I recall that winged Zoroastrian figure, too.  Why did they do that? 
 
Simply to give a genuine Persian background and atmosphere to the movie.
 
The word Swastika in several etymology sources points to cognates of this form such as words like is, essence, sentence, stream, sin, [Bodi]satva or "Hellense," etym[ology], sativa, etc...
 
These are not direct cognates however. 
 
Apparently, Swastika is a loanword to the Germans.  They called it some German anomaly I can't recall.
 
"Swastika" is a loan to all non-Indian languages.  We used to know it as the gammadion, from the Greek, since we knew the ancient Greeks used this symbol.  The Germans knew it as Hakenkreuz "hooked cross", a name familiar in other European languages. 
 
Adolf, converted the sinnistorse Swastika dextorse.  Is the Garduneh-e-Khorshid counterclockwise or clockwise?
 
clockwise
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 16:45
I have a question. ..  According to my sources the Iranians are the direct descendants of Aryan speakers.  However, I did not begin to get this notion until I began research into Iranian history.  I got more notions in my lifetime of the Nazi German Aryans, and white supremacy documentaries and even modern western history class in an American based curriculum high school.  I figure its because video camera's had been invented by WWII and so much propaganda, that would make for good footage.  I understand that the German conception of the Aryans had more to do with the hypothetical PIE speakers who Indo-Europeanist Max Muller conjectured designated themselves with a form of the morpheme Aryan.   But, I also have notions that the Aryans designates a "white race."  I recall learning about Persia in elementary social studies... but,  never in my life have I viewed anything in the media, that connects the Persians or any of the Iranic speakers with Zoroaster, or the Aryans.  Would you say that most people are in the dark about the how the Iranians are the Aryan speakers? 


Edited by mojobadshah - 07-Aug-2007 at 16:54
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 03:41
I have a question. ..  According to my sources the Iranians are the direct descendants of Aryan speakers.
 
You need to qualify that statement even more for clarification sake.  If you are talking about the modern "Iranian" you need to bare in mind that he is the result of lineages may have involved the introduction of genes from other parts of Eurasia, including Elamites and other early peoples of Iran, as well as from later invaders such as Greeks, Turks, and Mongols, as well as from other Iranic-speaking peoples such as the Sakas.  If you are talking about the ancient Iranians of "Greater Iran" then your statement has a greater accuracy.  
 
However, I did not begin to get this notion until I began research into Iranian history.  I got more notions in my lifetime of the Nazi German Aryans, and white supremacy documentaries and even modern western history class in an American based curriculum high school.  I figure its because video camera's had been invented by WWII and so much propaganda, that would make for good footage.
 
Such was the experience I've had.  My first exposure to the term "Aryan" was regarding the Nazis, and I can imagine this was probably true to most Europeans and Americans, since the Nazi doctrine using this term involved westerners in a war everybody was concerned with. 
 
I understand that the German conception of the Aryans had more to do with the hypothetical PIE speakers who Indo-Europeanist Max Muller conjectured designated themselves with a form of the morpheme Aryan.   But, I also have notions that the Aryans designates a "white race."
 
And here we need to be careful.  While it may be true that the early Aryans may be considered "white", we need to qualify that even more.  What do we mean by "white"?  To give you an example, in pop American terminology, hispanics are not "white" or "Caucasian".  They are "brown" or "hispanic".  Yet in hispanic usage, the term "white" is used to describe anyone of non-Indian or non-mixed background.  In the case of the early Aryans we really cannot say if they were "northern European white" or "central Asian white".  As I've already stated such pastoral societies were inclusive of people of any background.  To thus categorize them by a certain kind of "white" is presumptuous.  For the fact that they were ever expanding, it was inevitable that they were collecting new members into their culture even before their arrival into either Iran or India.  So to equate or "designate" the early Aryans to "a white race" is not really meaningful.  Equating a people to a "race" is a 19th century notion of looking at identity of early peoples. 
 
I recall learning about Persia in elementary social studies... but,  never in my life have I viewed anything in the media, that connects the Persians or any of the Iranic speakers with Zoroaster, or the Aryans.  Would you say that most people are in the dark about the how the Iranians are the Aryan speakers? 
 
Yes, just as they are in the dark that "Iran" means "land of the Aryas", and that the ancient Persians are ancestral to many modern Iranians.
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 23:29
According to my notions from anthropological studies the "Afghan-Iranian" is classified as a the "[brunet] white race," along with other IE. speakers.  But, the notions I get from popular culture is that the Aryans designate a, stereotypically,  white  genepool, rather than having anything to do with the common ancestors of all IE. speakers, PIE, or Iranian.

Tell me something...  my original arguement, was were IE. property rights assigned to a prima face language and the descendants of that language group that they would go to the Iranians.  You explained you're reasoning behind why the rights would go to the Greeks.  Aside, from the Greeks, what would the next candidates be?  Iranian, Italic, Celtic, German/Armenian, English, Balto-Slavic? 






Edited by mojobadshah - 08-Aug-2007 at 23:31
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