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Word "Aryan" is priced becoz of its Indic(Hindu)

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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Word "Aryan" is priced becoz of its Indic(Hindu)
    Posted: 23-Jun-2007 at 03:06
Well, Iran was converted to Islam ,but it chose a different one (Shi'a) from the Arabs. By accepting the Shi'a Islam, the Indo-European Iranians showed their difference from the (Sunni) Semitic Arabs.

Edited by Spartakus - 23-Jun-2007 at 03:07
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2007 at 04:56

India was invaded and completely conquered from the north.....

Care must be taken as to what is meant by "completely conquered".  The initial "migration" by speakers of Indic was restricted to the Punjab but later extended to the greater part of northern India.  Any "armed invasion" south of the Narmada doesn't really occur until after 300 BC by the Maurya.
 
.....by an Aryan, Iranian, or Cimmerian people using chariots and they instituted the caste (color) system.
 
Again, care must be taken as to how we define our terms.  We already know that Indo-Aryan was already separated from Iranic by at least 1800 BC, hence we are permitted to identify the migrants as speakers of Indo-Aryan (i.e. speakers of a language ancestral to Sanskrit). 
 
India was extremely backward before the new order was instilled in them.  Luckily for India today, they received a good blood transfusion during this time which serves them today.  Otherwise, they would have a civilization roughly equivalent to the aborigines in Australia or Borneo.
 
There is really nothing to suggest that the migrants were any more culturally advanced than the natives.  As a matter of fact there is the suggestion that the migrants were actually less advanced than the natives which were characterized as possessing "fortresses" which were destroyed by the invaders.  This suggests that the migrants had a background of nomadic stockbreeding while the natives were settled agriculturalists.     
 
These northern peoples were roaming all over the place, for example, the Alans, who were split by the Huns and joined the Germans in their various invasions.  I also regret that Iran was converted over to the Arabic (Semitic) islam, but hopefully, they can shake that off some day and return to their former greatness. 
 
It was the Iranic speakers which were "roaming all over the place".  The Indics were initially in possession of eastern Iran and northern India until the Iranics gained possession of eastern Iran by about 1400 BC.
 
Well, Iran was converted to Islam ,but it chose a different one (Shi'a) from the Arabs. By accepting the Shi'a Islam, the Indo-European Iranians showed their difference from the (Sunni) Semitic Arabs.
 
Actually, Iran was Sunni until the rise of the Safavids which were Shiite, and it was they who made Iran Shiite, having conquered the greater part of it by 1511.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2007 at 12:42
"There is really nothing to suggest that the migrants were any more culturally advanced than the natives"
I realize many people believe this and sometimes it is true.  The Mongols defeated the Chinese who obviously had a more advanced civilization, although it can be argued that if a nation is incapable of maintaining military strength in the face of a towering enemy, then it is inferior culturally.  Self preservation is the first law of nature, after all.  The invasion of India was demonstrably different.  This invasion was more of a race war where the winners imposed their race and replaced or bred out of existence some of those they conquered.  The ones they did not breed with were considered untouchables.  How it can be argued that untouchables had a superior civilization seems absurd. 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2007 at 15:25

I would also quibble with the use of the term "migrant".  A migrant is someone going to another land looking for work, food, a place to live, etc.  A migrant is usually in a lower position compared to the people he is seeking to live amongst.   What happened to India was a military invasion backed by the best technology of the time.  The people invading should be more likened to a Nation, rather then mere individual migrants.

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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2007 at 16:37
Originally posted by Sharrukin

 Actually, Iran was Sunni until the rise of the Safavids which were Shiite, and it was they who made Iran Shiite, having conquered the greater part of it by 1511.

 
Well, they did not do much in rejecting the Shi'a Islam either. One could argue that the adoption of Shi'a islam was the second part of expressing a different identity from the Arabs. When they where conquered by the Arabs, the Sassanian beaurocratic ellits retained the Pahlavi , which was the writen form of Persian, until the 10th century (appearance of Ferdowsi)as well as Arabic, which shows the difference of identity in their conscience .


Edited by Spartakus - 23-Jun-2007 at 16:39
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2007 at 20:02
"There is really nothing to suggest that the migrants were any more culturally advanced than the natives"
I realize many people believe this and sometimes it is true.  The Mongols defeated the Chinese who obviously had a more advanced civilization, although it can be argued that if a nation is incapable of maintaining military strength in the face of a towering enemy, then it is inferior culturally.
 
While it is true that less advanced nations or tribes eventually dominate settled communities (and eventually settle down themselves), the settled communities tend to be more complex than the nomadic ones.  Cities, for instance had to develop a certain level of complexity of society in order to exist. 
 
It is rather simplistic to say that settled communities were "incapable" of defending themselves.  It took several centuries for the Germanics to cause Rome to "fall".  Chinese civilization survived Mongol domination.  The Sumerians were able to withstand the onslaughts of other peoples for centuries as well.  The point is that settled communities were quite capable of defending themselves.  The problem is that settled communities had much to defend, and the advantage is always with the attacker, which was military, not mixed.  An attack from settled communities upon those that are not settled tend to not be as effective since the nomads tend to take their property wherever they go and could be quite elusive.     
 
Self preservation is the first law of nature, after all.
 
And self-preservation is what the settled communities did.  It can be said that when the "immigrants" settled, they lost their identity and were "assimilated" by the locals.  Hence, the newcomers did not "preserve" themselves but became like the locals.  Usually the only remnant that survives is language and religion.
 
The invasion of India was demonstrably different.  This invasion was more of a race war where the winners imposed their race and replaced or bred out of existence some of those they conquered.
 
Care must be taken as to what you mean by "race".  Even when speaking only of "Caucasoids" there is so much in the variation of skin color that even such categories as "Mediterranean" and "Alpine" really are not significant.  Variations in the human population had been there for so many millennia that even the invaders themselves may have been "mixed".  If, as popularly asserted that they had come from Central Asia, they would have traversed regions of various different cultures in order to have entered India.  This took many centuries, and inevitably resulted in a mixed population.  Hence, "race" would have been inadequate to describe whatever conflicts the invaders had with the local populations.
 
Remember, that at least phenotypically, the invaders were assimilated by the locals and became indistinguishable from them.  The only true evidence we have of such a "mix" is the male-origined R1a1 gene in the Indian population, especially in northern India, although even this is disputed by some Indian studies.  In either case, if it was a "race war" the invaders lost by intermarrying with the local population.   A true "race war" would have resulted in either the extermination of the local "race" or its subjugation and obvious differentiation from the "victorious race".  "High caste" Indians are really not that distinguishable from "lower caste" Indians. 
 
is the present The ones they did not breed with were considered untouchables.  How it can be argued that untouchables had a superior civilization seems absurd.
 
You are speaking from the point-of-view of the present-day.  I must point out that even in the earliest Vedas, the Rig Veda, there was no evidence of "caste".  While it is true that the four-tier caste designations do appear in the Rig Veda,  nothing suggests that these were even hereditary, but simply occupational.  Later anecdotal stories tell of people which began in one varna and came into another, and even of people marrying outside their varna.  When varna gained the meaning of "caste" was of a later time.
 
I would also quibble with the use of the term "migrant".  A migrant is someone going to another land looking for work, food, a place to live, etc.  A migrant is usually in a lower position compared to the people he is seeking to live amongst.
 
A "migrant" is simply one who migrates (=moves from place to place).  It is also used as a shortened form of the term "migrant worker", which is the sense you are using. 
 
What happened to India was a military invasion backed by the best technology of the time.  The people invading should be more likened to a Nation, rather then mere individual migrants.
 
There is nothing to suggest that it was simply "a military invasion".  The implication is that of a brief campaign, especially a unified one.  Archaeology seems to indicate stages in terms of centuries for the "conquest" of northern India.  If we take the Gandhara Grave (c. 1600-500 BC) and the Painted Grave Ware (c. 1100-350 BC) cultures as indicators of Indo-Aryan presence, it took about 500 years for the "military invasion" to gain possession of northern India, alone!!!  During this time we read of accounts wars amongst the tribes, themselves.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2007 at 22:58
I agree the term "race war' is somewhat overblown.  It's also somewhat subjective; if you're a Frank, Gaul, or Roman and you see clouds of Huns coming at you, you may see a racial component.  My reading of history, although limited, described caste as based on color, which brings in the racial component, so the use of "race" is not totally off target.  What happened in India, which has happened in hundreds of societies including America, is that racial differences were written into laws which favored the conqueror.  Laws are written to favor an ethnic group while claiming to be based on logic and economics rather then race, but we know where the truth lies.  I'm sure the Brahmans coincidentally ended up being descended from the conquering class, but no need to belabor the point.  I also think it's a little inaccurate to compare a city-state's ability to defend itself to the entire indian sub-continent's defense of its civilization. 
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 08:27

The story I have gained here so far is of a homogenous group (I wont say invaders) from (wherever) entered India from (somewhere in the North). They went on to overlay their culture on the pre-existing culture (I wont say set up a caste system). There was (a largely unnamed) culture there who (for unknown reasons) assimilated the incoming culture. I hope I got all that right.

This more homogenous group soon were considered noble because for they acquired land and planted crops. Then these noblemen lorded it over the now disenfranchised peasants. In which country on earth has this cycle never happened? Look at the Greeks who celebrated noble ancestry through ancient farming festivals (Hieros Gamos) and the Roman noblewomen who made a religion out of it (Bona Dea).  

Now Aryan can mean noble but also means tiller of the soil according to Friedrich Max Muller, the first scholar to translate the Rig Vedas into English. The controversy started for every nationalist minded group wanted to claim their race originally started growing food rather than staying with being hunter-gatherers.

We must be talking about a Neolithic age here, an essential stage in the social evolution of emerging groups. There are two major versions of settling in village farms, the Semitic and the Indo-European. The Semitic claim is backed up by the Old Testament Bible as shared by three major faiths, Jewish, Christian and Moslem. The Book says Cain and Abel were the first tillers of the soil. However, the Book has a spiritual rather than historical meaning.

At one time most sought to find Biblical evidence for world settlement (some still do). But impartial investigation led to other ways of life, with separate ways of development, language and ways of religion. One would think the far more developed Semitics would have been better organized, but their language and customs fragmented into areas and groups. Perhaps early on their once fertile lands started drying out, more competition for land occurred and no overall agreement was reached between the competing groups.

On the other hand there is the linked language group called Indo-Aryan, (now known as Indo-European). Their settlements went into India, the European wilderness and Asian plains. Their dynamic speech and customs had nothing to do with Semitic model yet their natural law system made the basis for Western law, they did have overall legal agreements. That these people were in India like first stated makes an attractive idea, but when examining the PIE (Proto Indo-European) root words another location emerges, where that was remains a matter of speculation.

 



Edited by elenos - 24-Jun-2007 at 08:34
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 13:51
The caste system (archaic) was based on color of skin and then later became more sophisticated based on different trades, etc.  Originally, the conquerors instilled their system on the territory and wrote it into law.  They had chariots; they came in and squashed the local defenders and raped the women.  The forcible and coercive mating with the local women formed the racial new order.  The idea that different nations just haphazardly start living together and voila, someone comes out ahead and forms a royal line seems preposterous.  What group of people is going to just relax and let a bunch of strangers (Alans or other Iranic people) roll into town and start planting crops on their land?  Would you let a stranger come to your land or house and plant some crops?  No, and certainly the locals wouldn't readily agree to that either.  You have to use some insight here, coupled with what you read in books.  Humans are animals, and animals are very territorial.  Each year you go back into time, people, almost universally, favor their own race and culture.  The people of the nation were more closely linked to nature, which is based on survival of the fittest and the worship of natural deities.  We cannot apply 21st liberal ideas formed in a library to what must have been an extremely savage time in human history.
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 23:04
We cannot apply 21st liberal ideas formed in a library to what must have been an extremely savage time in human history.
 
Yes we can because of what we now know.  Studies of pastoral societies do in fact show that they tended to be quite inclusive.  On the other hand, agricultural societies, being much more rigid, didn't allow outsiders into their society that quite easily.  A case and point is the situation between the Pathans and the Baluchis.  As observed by Frederik Barth, the Pathans were the more numerous, wealthier,  better armed, and had a better military reputation, than the Baluchis, which are pastoral.  Yet, the Baluchi are absorbing the Pathans because of the inclusive nature of their society.  Where the Pathans, being agriculturalists don't allow membership amongst themselves that easily, the Baluchis have been absorbing Pathans due to both social and economic factors.  Hence, having all the physical advantages is no guarantee that the "superior" people can survive against the less advantaged one. 
 
As a matter of fact, just studying ancient pastoral societies do show that kind of pattern of inclusivity.  The Bulgars (their name meaning the "mixed ones") was a conglomeration of tribes of various origins.  The Huns were likewise.  A study of the personal names of Huns show that they originated from various backgrounds, not just Turkic.  The founder of the first Turkish (Turuk) Empire was said to have descended from someone from the Indo-European Tarim oasis.  The Scythians, although portrayed as singularly Europoid, had a "mongoloid" component within their royalty, as evident from their remains dug out of the "royal" kurgans. 
 
The same may have happened to the Indo-Aryans.  Having already expounded upon the non-caste nature of the Rig-Veda, the rest is quite academic.  It did not take a "race war" to describe what we observe in the present day.  Using the examples cited above, all of this simply means is that the "nation" which conquered gained all the power.  It is natural for that "nation" to favor its members over the locals.  For the fact that the invaders may have been "lighter-skinned" is incidental.   The Magadhas, for instance were despised in the Vedas, yet they became the paramount Indian kingdom by about 300 BC.  Chariotry, was the natural outcome of a former steppe existence, not symptomatic of some obscure idea of "superior culture".  If this was so, it gains no proof against the battle-tactics of a Greek phalanx which completely nuliified its usefulness.
 
Ultimately, I must turn around and respond that it is this "race-oriented" 19th-century conservative ideal view of history which cannot be applied to ancient history.  The ancients certainly did not have the same "racial" concepts that we have today.  The ancients thought in terms of their own group, be it a city-state, nation, or tribe, regardless of differences.  Otherwise, how can people living in an "extremely savage time" be the authors of such elegant works such as the Vedas and the Epics?  Such race-oriented views of history must be put away, in favor of better, more documentable research.
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 00:42
Good points genseric and Sharrukin, what you say is more in line with the way I understand the invasions happened. I wanted feedback on what others thought for the subject deserves more attention in that it laid the down the foundations of Europe and that took the involvement and inter-mixture of many races. T

radition has it that the invaders came and left the mutilated bodies of locals pinned to their doors by a shower of arrows. Okay, so where did these hyped up rambos come from and why?

I am a climate change proponent myself, rather than a library freak. Reading between the lines something huge happened in their original homeland like flood, drought or plague that set them on their historic move and with no looking back. These guys, regardless of who they were,  weren't going to  take no for an answer when it came to where or when they would settle next.     
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 17:19
I am a climate change proponent myself, rather than a library freak. Reading between the lines something huge happened in their original homeland like flood, drought or plague that set them on their historic move and with no looking back. These guys, regardless of who they were,  weren't going to  take no for an answer when it came to where or when they would settle next. 
 
As a matter of fact, we find that by the middle of the 2nd millennium BC the nature of the steppe altered climatically to the extent we find it today.  This altered the life-style of the pastoralists from a more sedentary to a more nomadic culture.  The division between Indo-Aryans and Iranians had already occurred prior to this time, the Indo-Aryans already having contact with the more sedentary civilizations of the Iranian plateau including the BMAC culture.  The Andronovian pastoralists then began migrating southwards (c. 1400 BC) into the Iranian plateau causing the Indo-Aryans to be pushed into India.  Some of the toponyms of present-day Iran can be traced to Indo-Aryan originals, not Iranian.  The Zend Avesta itself seems to locate the "home of the Aryas" or Airyanem Vaeja just north of present-day Iran (roughly Turkmenistan).  The Andronovians which remained in the steppe became the possessors of the successor culture of the Andronovo Cultural Complex (c. 2200-1000 BC), itself, called the Early Nomad Culture (c. 1000-500 BC).  This culture, in turn was succeeded by the cultures of the Sarmatians, Issedonians, "Asiatic Scythians", Massagetians, Sakas, and the Arimaspians.      
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 22:32

This is from a DNA study I read which supports my argument, emphasis added.  I won't post the link because I don't know if we are allowed to do that.  I admire Sharrukin's idealism, but we have to go where the evidence leads us. 

"To explore the impact of West Eurasians on contemporary Indian caste populations, we compared mtDNA (400 bp of hypervariable region 1 and 14 restriction site polymorphisms) and Y-chromosome (20 biallelic polymorphisms and 5 short tandem repeats) variation in 265 males from eight castes of different rank to 750 Africans, Asians, Europeans, and other Indians. **For maternally inherited mtDNA, each caste is most similar to Asians**. However, 20%30% of Indian mtDNA haplotypes belong to West Eurasian haplogroups, and the frequency of these haplotypes is proportional to caste rank, the highest frequency of West Eurasian haplotypes being found in the upper castes. In contrast, **for paternally inherited Y-chromosome variation each caste is more similar to Europeans than to Asians**. Moreover, the affinity to Europeans is proportionate to caste rank, the upper castes being most similar to Europeans, particularly East Europeans. These findings are consistent with greater West Eurasian male admixture ith castes of higher rank. Nevertheless, the mitochondrial genome and the Y chromosome each represents only a single haploid locus and is more susceptible to large stochastic variation, bottlenecks, and selective sweeps. Thus, to increase the power of our analysis, we assayed 40 independent, biparentally inherited autosomal loci (1 LINE-1 and 39 Alu elements) in all of the caste and continental populations (600 individuals). Analysis of these data demonstrated that the upper castes have a higher affinity to Europeans than to Asians, and the upper castes are significantly more similar to Europeans than are the lower castes."
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 23:06
But, what does this mean?  Again, pastoral groups were much more inclusive than the settled groups.  There will be a favoratism toward the victorious group, especially the core group.  As your source indicates it includes Eurasian mtDNA as well as native mtDNA (female) haplogroups in the genetic makeup of the higher castes, hence, the inclusive nature of these higher castes.  The offspring of the invaders became mixed royalty.  Hence, again, no indication of "race war", just the natural result of a victorious nation assimilating into the local culture.  And again, "caste" was a later development.  The Rig Veda, the oldest Indian document makes no distinctions on "racial" grounds.
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2007 at 04:40
What is the relationship between the Arim-Aspians, the Aspa's of the Avesta, the Aria-Aspians, the Arya-Afghans, or the Aryan-Equestrians?

The etymology of the designation Iran is well defined.  The etymology for Afghan, more, loosely defined.  The two etymologies for Afghan are 1.  Aspa (akin to cognates like equestrian) 2. figan (akin to cognates such as ab and aqua, if I"m not mistaken)  Which one is the conventional one, and why?

Secondly, I recall Alexander noticed that the Aria-Aspians had a council system on his campaign east, or am I confusing things.   What is the earliest recollection of a democratic council system among the Irano-Aryan nations.

What is the conventional dating of the Jerga council system?




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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 00:57
What is the relationship between the Arim-Aspians, the Aspa's of the Avesta, the Aria-Aspians, the Arya-Afghans, or the Aryan-Equestrians?
 
None, except for the common term for "horse".  You got to bare in mind that the Indo-Aryans were horse-oriented societies, having their origins in the steppe.  Hence, the wide use of the term for "horse" in their tribal names would be quite extensive.  Other Iranic peoples baring "aspa, assa, asva" included, according to Strabo, the Asaei and Aspurgiani in Asiatic Sarmatia;  the Zariaspae of Bactria; the Asiotae and Aspasii in Scythia intra Imaum; and the Aspacarae in Scythia extra Imaum. 

The etymology of the designation Iran is well defined.  The etymology for Afghan, more, loosely defined.  The two etymologies for Afghan are 1.  Aspa (akin to cognates like equestrian) 2. figan (akin to cognates such as ab and aqua, if I"m not mistaken)  Which one is the conventional one, and why?
 
The more conventional one is "aspa".  See the Wikipedia article for more details:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_name_Afghan

Secondly, I recall Alexander noticed that the Aria-Aspians had a council system on his campaign east, or am I confusing things.
 
The Ariaspians, located between Drangiana and Bactria were noted for their political institutions and ethics which were considered similar to the Greeks, but what those institutions were are not specified.  It is only implied that these meant democratic institutions.  
 
What is the earliest recollection of a democratic council system among the Irano-Aryan nations.
 
Unknown.  The Avesta speaks of an almost unbroken line of those who held the "Royal Glory" beginning with Ahura Mazda (Khorda Avesta, Yam Yasht).  There is some implication of local township ruling councils according to the Assyrian inscriptions describing campaigns against the Medes, but nothing quite specific.  According to Indian works, there were what were termed samghas or ganas, "tribal republics" existing at least from the 6th century BC.  Among these was that of the Asvayana which some compare to the later Afghans.

What is the conventional dating of the Jerga council system?
 
Unknown.  All I've got was that it was "of ancient tribal origin". 
 


Edited by Sharrukin - 27-Jun-2007 at 21:05
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2007 at 16:51

Previously, you mentioned that it can not be proven that Zoroastrian (Irano-Aryan) ideograms developed from Afro-Asiatic ones, and vice versa.  Though, I am aware that the Jews did borrow ideograms from Zoroastrians, and not vice versa.  You also told me that Darius's style resembled earlier, Afro-Asiatic inscriptions.  Do we agree that Darius used East Iranian or Zoroastrian ideograms like, Mazda, and Aspa?  Its it proven fact that Darius's style developed from an Afro-Asiatic one eg. "I am true...there was a deciever...by divine intervention I overcame..."  Wouldn't it be more plausible that Darius's style came from Zoroaster?

 
 
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2007 at 23:34
Previously, you mentioned that it can not be proven that Zoroastrian (Irano-Aryan) ideograms developed from Afro-Asiatic ones, and vice versa.
 
Remember that "ideograms" were "written characters", hence, Zoroastrian "Avestan" characters did in fact derive from Aramaic "Afro-Asiatic" ones.
 
Though, I am aware that the Jews did borrow ideograms from Zoroastrians, and not vice versa.
 
No, Jewish characters derived from Aramaic ones, as well. 
 
You also told me that Darius's style resembled earlier, Afro-Asiatic inscriptions.  Do we agree that Darius used East Iranian or Zoroastrian ideograms like, Mazda, and Aspa?
 
Mazda and Aspa were not ideograms, they were words.  Now, it is fact that he used the form "Auramazda" in his inscriptions.  On the other hand, "aspa" was not Old Persian but Median.  The Old Persian form was "assa".  See here:
 
 
Its it proven fact that Darius's style developed from an Afro-Asiatic one eg. "I am true...there was a deciever...by divine intervention I overcame..."  Wouldn't it be more plausible that Darius's style came from Zoroaster?
 
It is true that he uses Zoroastrian phraseology in his inscriptions, however, the general style of his inscriptions still remained Mesopotamian.
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 02:56
My bad, by ideogram I meant the historical or hagiographical ideas or concepts, apart from the ones that the morphemes, alone, convey. 

But, I am curious about the style.  So, his phraseology came from Zoroastrian speakers, but there are components of his style that resemble both Zoroaster's and the Assyrian? 

You, basically, said that the style: "I am the truth.  There was a deceiver.  By divine intervention, I overcame."

Is that the jist of what you mean by style?  
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Chieftain
Chieftain


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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 11:32

My bad, by ideogram I meant the historical or hagiographical ideas or concepts, apart from the ones that the morphemes, alone, convey.

Okay.  Then by Zoroastrian "ideas or concepts", yes, they cannot be proven to have been derived from Afro-Asiatic ones.  On the other hand, post-exilic Judaism seemed to have adopted the Zoroastrian idea of a spiritual arch-fiend.  Among non-canonical Jewish works was the mention of Asmodeus, derived from Zoroastrian Ashmu Daiva.  

But, I am curious about the style.  So, his phraseology came from Zoroastrian speakers, but there are components of his style that resemble both Zoroaster's and the Assyrian?
 
No, that's not it.  I said that he uses "Zoroastrian phraseology", but uses it to only convery his religious convictions.  These are very brief statements compared to the rest of the inscription involved, hence the phraseology is contained in the inscription, but does not characterize the inscription. 

You, basically, said that the style: "I am the truth.  There was a deceiver.  By divine intervention, I overcame."

Is that the jist of what you mean by style?
 
No, this is merely the Zoroastrian phraseology.  The "style" which is political in nature, and which comprises the great majority of the inscription involved is Mesopotamian in origin.  To give you an example:
 
Assyrian:  "Esarhaddon, the Great King, the mighty king, king of the universe, king of Assria, viceroy of Babylon, king of Sumer and Akkad, son of Senacherib, the Great King, the mighty king of Assyria, son of Sargon, the Great king, the mighty king, king of Assyria..."
 
Old Persian:  "I am Darius the Great King, King of Kings, King in Persia, King of countries, son of Hystaspes, grandson of Arsames, an Achaemenian.  Darius the King says: My father was Hystaspes; Hystaspes' father was Arsames; Arsames' father was Ariaramnes; Ariaramnes' father was Teispes; Teispes' father was Achaemenes."
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