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bg_turk
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Topic: The Pomak Language - a Bulgarian dialect? Posted: 17-Jun-2006 at 09:15 |
In another thread the Pomak dialect was brought into discussion so not to diverge from the topic I open this new thread:
Originally posted by Yiannis
If the Pomak language is spoken, then it must have a
certain syntax and grammar attached to it, no? The only thing missing
would be to write it down.
1. Kak to zavot?
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Orhn: Mne mo zavt Orhn. Tbe kak to zavt?
Hilmiy: Mne mo zavt Hilmiy.
Orhn: At kad si?
Hilmiy: At Bratnkovo. T at kad si?
Orhn: Ya som at Sdnovitso. mash li drg brtye?
Hilmiy: mom ann sstro i dvamna brtie.
Orhn: Ya mom le annk brta yshte.
Hilmiy: Klko si godn?
Orhn: Ye som na on-doks. T na klku si?
Hilmiy: Ya som na on-yed.
Orhn: Znosh li da dmish Urmtski?
Hilmiy: Na znom ytse hbe. T?
Orhn: Ya znom hbe. Kak zavt bubykati?
Hilmiy: Zavt go Husen. Daktr ye faf Iskche. Tbe bubykoti kakv rbato pri?
Orhn: Rbati na vaprieno. Ti ye is na Amriko.
Hilmiy: Va, inlkos dalche ye! Kog she si dide?
Orhn: Za tri msets.
Hilmiy: Ytse hbe. Iti sme. She dmime pak.
Orhn: She dmime. Zhvi i zdrvi!
Hilmiy: Zhvi i zdrvi! |
http://pomakdictionary.tripod.com/index/id10.html | |
LOL, this was so funny.
Orhan asks how old are you, in Bulgarian.
And then Hilmiye replies 'on-dokus' in Turkish. I really did not know pomaks counted in Turkish.
Most of the Pomaks I know speak pure Bulgarian, mostly due to the
assimilation, I suppose their language was better preserved in Greece.
'bubaykati' I suppose means "your father". In my Turkish dialect it is 'buba', in Turkish 'baba'.
'urumutski' should mean Greek. It is Rumca in Turkish. But Turks from Rumelia tend to invert the letter ordering when they start with 'r'. examples: Turkish -> BG_Turkish = EN ------------------------------------- Rumeli -> Urmeli = Rumelia ruya -> urya = Dream ruba -> urba = Clothe Apparently Pomaks do the same. So they have changed Rumtski to Urumtski.
But questions that spring to mind are ...
Why is it in Latin, and not in Cyrillic? Wouldn't it be natural for
Greeks to impose Cyrillic as the alphabet of the Pomak language, since
it is closer to their own?
By the way I can feel how Charge will drop on us like a ton of bricks for the invention of the "Pomak language" as if the "Macedonian language" is not enough.
Edited by bg_turk - 17-Jun-2006 at 09:22
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NikeBG
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Posted: 20-Jun-2006 at 08:28 |
Well, I didn't saw a Pomak language, but a Bulgarian one with a heavy Turkish influence. That doesn't mean it's separate or Turkish language. Otherwise, you could say that modern (colloquial?) Bulgarian is actually not a Bulgarian language, but an English dialect, because of some English (and French etc.) loan-words we took.
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Tangra
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Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 16:51 |
Hello NikeBG and bg_turk
I was browsing the internet and by accident found this forum and your posts cought my attention and i decided to join in.
It is a pleasure reading your posts. You seem to be quite knowledgable historians and I am looking forward to learn from you.
History is one of my weak subjects
I am glad I found this place.
Regards,
Tangra
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bg_turk
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Posted: 22-Jun-2006 at 06:56 |
Originally posted by NikeBG
a Bulgarian one with a heavy Turkish influence. |
Surely the language spoken by Pomaks is closest to Bulgarian and I am not the one who is advocating it as a seperate language. Apparently the Greek state is planning to create a new Pomak Literary language to teach in schools in Western Thrace. It was discussed here: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12631&PN=8Ps. Dobre Dosla Tangra!
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dorian
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Posted: 22-Jun-2006 at 10:31 |
Don't forget that the Pomak language has many Greek words.
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"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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bg_turk
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Posted: 22-Jun-2006 at 11:02 |
Originally posted by dorian
Don't forget that the Pomak language has many Greek words. |
Not that I am aware of. Can you give examples of Greek words in the Pomak language?
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dorian
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Posted: 22-Jun-2006 at 22:33 |
Yeah, there are many words of pure greek origin (many of them related to the ancient greek forms), so it is believed that they are unlikely to be simple loans and some believe that the pomak language was an ancient greek dialect that was heavily fluenced by foreign languages.
This is a small sample (note that only words of pure greek origin are included):
Pomak-Greek-English
argal-argalios-loom
chentrfel-triantafyllo-rose
chersha-kerasi-cherry
chorpi-tsourapi-socks
dskalie-daskalos-teacher
doshter-thygatera-daughter
fro-foros-tax
ish*trie-isitirio-ticket
kalm-kalami-cane, reed
kalsvam-kaleo (kalo)-invite
kanonl-from the word "kanon" which means "law"-legal
kiuls-ecclesia-church
kkal-kokalo-bone
kolba-kaliva-cottage
kpch-koumpi-button
kpele-kopeli-boy
kufna-kofini-basket
lhna-lahano-cabbage
lfter-elefteros-free, single
livd-livadi-meadow
mgia-magia-magic
mikina-mihani-machine
myira-magiras-cook (n.)
mushk-mis-mouse
myrsom-myrizo-smell
noht-nyhi (ancient "onyhion")-nail
ti-dioti (ancient "oti")-because
ti-giati (ancient "oti")-why
pfka-pefko or pefki-pine tree
ptal-petalo-horse shoe
petl-petinos-cock, rooster
pipr-piperi-pepper
pirn-pirouni-fork
pltom-pleko (noun: plekton)-knit
pmnem-verb:ypommimnisko/noun:ypomnima-remember
pyem-related with the "piima" (poem)-sing
prvem-pratto-do
pryima-progevma-breakfast
rka-ryaki-river
rgan-rigani-origanum
samr-samari-saddle
snar-sinoro-border
sno-kiano-blue
skopzin-skopos-guard
skrafsom-ksirafizo-shave
skurf-ksirafi-razor
svrem-sfyrizo-whistle
tpan-timpano-drum
tryem-trivo-rub
vol-vodi-ox
yeran-yeranos-crane
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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Red4tribe
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Posted: 22-Jun-2006 at 22:34 |
Interesting I never knew that.
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The Chargemaster
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Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 04:53 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
Orhan asks how old are you, in Bulgarian.
And then Hilmiye replies 'on-dokus' in Turkish. I really did not know pomaks counted in Turkish. |
Well - that`s all - the pomaks in Greece speaks bulgarian language, but
with some turkish and greek words. I also use turkish and greek words, when i speak.
Originally posted by bg_turk
Most of the Pomaks I know speak pure Bulgarian, mostly due to the
assimilation, I suppose their language was better preserved in Greece. |
"mostly due to the assimilation"? This sounds really funny. ===> Bulgarians, assimilated (by other bulgarians) to bulgarians.
Well, they are muslims and they counted
in turkish as a result of the turkish-islamic assimilation in the time
of the turkish rule in the Balkans.
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The Chargemaster
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Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 04:56 |
Originally posted by Dorian
Don't forget that the Pomak language has many Greek words. |
And you - don`t forget that many greek words are used by many peoples in the world and especially in the Balkans and in the Mediterranean.
Edited by The Chargemaster - 23-Jun-2006 at 04:57
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bg_turk
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Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 06:17 |
Thanks for the list Dorian, but most of the words on this list as Charge noted also exist in Bulgarian and Macedonian so they do not prove any link of the language spoken by Pomaks to Greek. (some even exist in Turkish - kanonlo (kanunlu), kufina(kufa), lahna).
PS. Could you please provide the source from where you pasted the list?
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Tangra
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Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 13:54 |
Did you know that there are Bulgarian words which are very close with Mongolian
for instance
Tsetsa ( which we all know is used as a name and is another version of Tsveta) in Mongolian "tsetsa" means flower ie tsvete.
Also the pagan God of the pra-bulgars we all know was Tangra. We also know that according to our pagan traditions in the past God was concidered to be the sky and everything in it...well guess what In Mongolian Tangra means sky.
Edited by Tangra - 23-Jun-2006 at 13:56
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HUBAVA SI MOYA GORO!
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Bulldog
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Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 14:28 |
Tangrism is still a living religion I think? by some Turkic people's in North Eastern Russian remote regions.
Its great to see more Bulgarians starting to explore their past and put the prejeduce and lies that have sadly been promoted aside.
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Tangra
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Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 15:18 |
Originally posted by Bulldog
Its great to see more Bulgarians starting to explore their past and put the prejeduce and lies that have sadly been promoted aside. |
Thank you for the encouragment.
I think we have always been conscious and proud of our nationality, culture and history but it is true that communism did a lot of damage especialy to our esteem as a nation.
One thing that really grabbed my attention when I first encountered this forum was the thirst for knowledge and the very friendly ambience and communication. I am really enjoying to see people from the balkans exploring our past and cultures together. After all we all are like a big familly and we should look past any prejudice.
Speaking of lies and prejudice I have noticed thou that westerners hold a lot of preconceived ideas and have inaccurate perspective of the bolkans. I am also happy to see people from the far west being interested of getting the real picture.
Regards
Edited by Tangra - 23-Jun-2006 at 15:27
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HUBAVA SI MOYA GORO!
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dorian
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Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 20:16 |
I didn't copy-paste it. I just looked through a small list of pomak words and their translation in english, and I found which of these words derive from greek words.
As you can see, most of the above english words have no relationship with the greek words, so we can't say that these specific greek words have generally affected the vocabulary of the prevalent languages like english.
Actually, how many of these greek words are congener in bulgarian? I have no idea.
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Anton
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Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 09:03 |
Dorian, thanks for the list. No doubts, a lot of greek words came to bulgarian as well as most of other languages. Regarding the words posted by you I propose a simple test. If these words exist in ancient greek they are greek (but actually even in this case they could come to both languages separately from for example thracian). If not -- study is required for every particular word. In these case there is a possibility that words came from other languages to greek. Why not?
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Leonidas
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Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 09:52 |
there are some words in greek that are not I/E, but are assumed to be pre-I/E. Would that preculde them from being greek? In my mind no, but that may have to be clarified before any test.
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dorian
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Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 11:26 |
Originally posted by Anton
Dorian, thanks for the list. No doubts, a lot of greek words came to bulgarian as well as most of other languages. Regarding the words posted by you I propose a simple test. If these words exist in ancient greek they are greek (but actually even in this case they could come to both languages separately from for example thracian). If not -- study is required for every particular word. In these case there is a possibility that words came from other languages to greek. Why not? |
That's a good remark Anton. This is something that I forgot to say.I posted only the words which are of pure greek origin after a quick study for each world and excluded the greek words which have a turkish, slavic, latin etc origin.
Furthermore, I have a separate list of pomak verbs and nouns that come from greek verbs and nouns respectively and they are almost identical with the greek (except for the endings). But these pomak words are written in the greek alphabet in my source and I have to write them in latin according to the pronunciantion. If I post them, I'd like to tell me if these words really exist in the pomak language (if anyone knows).
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Anton
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Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 18:13 |
Dorian I have checked all posted words and most of them seems to be ancient greek indeed I could add word "ajde" which means "let's do" or "hurry up". At least my greek friends told me that such word exist in greek language. Some mentions -- in bulgarian piron mean nail, and zastaem would probably mean to stand after. And in bulgarian kopele means bustard not a boy . Maybe in pomak these words have translations that you mentioned but may be not. Which by the way does not mean that words mentioned by you came directly from greek not through bulgarian
Another thing that I would like to mention as a discussion is that some of the mention words are common notonly for Balcan slavs but all or at least most of them (like koliba, kokal, livad, miska, pomnem, and some others). How could you explain that they are taken from greek? It seems to be more than strange to take a commonly used words for like doghter or mother from another language. Usually invasion of words are taken either when mixture of nations occur or when there is something is missing in a culture and word such word does not exist. These are words like school, magia etc. which comes from greek and latin. Am I not right? Sorry for the of-top -- it is not related to this topic but it is just interesting question.
And finally, could you kindly post words that were taken by greek from slavs?
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dorian
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Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 18:45 |
Originally posted by Anton
Some mentions -- in bulgarian piron mean nail, and zastaem would probably mean to stand after. And in bulgarian kopele means bustard not a boy . Maybe in pomak these words have translations that you mentioned but may be not. |
I took these words from a pomak-english dictionary. I don't think that it doesn't have the right meaning for each one.
Originally posted by Anton
Which by the way does not mean that words mentioned by you came directly from greek not through bulgarian |
If anyone can give the bulgarian word for each pomak we could see it.
Originally posted by Anton
Another thing that I would like to mention as a discussion is that some of the mention words are common notonly for Balcan slavs but all or at least most of them (like koliba, kokal, livad, miska, pomnem, and some others). How could you explain that they are taken from greek? It seems to be more than strange to take a commonly used words for like doghter or mother from another language. Usually invasion of words are taken either when mixture of nations occur or when there is something is missing in a culture and word such word does not exist. These are words like school, magia etc. which comes from greek and latin. Am I not right? Sorry for the of-top -- it is not related to this topic but it is just interesting question. |
1.Greek from the ancient times up to now is a very prestigious language.
2.The slavic language (at the beginning) like many others in Balkans were only oral so it was easier for foreign words to enter the slavic vocabulary.
3.Slavs were not civilised.
4. Their alphabet derive from the greek. It is quite important.
5.Greek was the lingua franca during the hellenistic times and the language of the Byzantine Empire. That's the main reason for the greek words which exist in the balkanian languages.
Originally posted by Anton
And finally, could you kindly post words that were taken by greek from slavs? |
There are few greek words of slavic origin. I know two of them: kotetsi and velentza
Edited by dorian - 24-Jun-2006 at 18:48
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"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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