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The Late Byzantine Military (1204-1461)

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  Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Late Byzantine Military (1204-1461)
    Posted: 15-Sep-2008 at 12:06
Nice to find you still here ByzEmp.!
And a real one:
It is exhibited in Byzantine and Christian Museum in Athens,and belongs to Ysterobyzantine(Late) period(13th to 15th c.,height 135cm).




Again Saint Theodoros of Terwn,in Byzantine Museum of Athens,15th century.





Edited by Patrinos - 15-Sep-2008 at 12:07
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2008 at 14:52
I think that this chainmail at Byzantine Museum of Athens is Othoman or persian origin.
Late Byzantine period is a very importand and it is very nice that there is a forum about it.
 
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2008 at 22:26
Originally posted by akritis

I think that this chainmail at Byzantine Museum of Athens is Othoman or persian origin.
Late Byzantine period is a very importand and it is very nice that there is a forum about it.
 
Thanks Akritis and welcome to AE.  From what I have heard there are not many pieces extant of late Byzantine armor.  Unfortunately the archaeologists of classical Greece have destroyed much of it trying to get at the ancient materials below.  Is it a prevailing attitude in Greece that the artifacts from its classical heritage are more valuable than the Byzantine ones?
 
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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2008 at 23:31
Can anyone tell me anything about the Stratiotai?


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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2008 at 23:45
Originally posted by Count Belisarius

Can anyone tell me anything about the Stratiotai?
 
Yes, it is the Greek plural word for "soldiers."
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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2008 at 00:59
I meant as in the cavalry


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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2008 at 19:35
Originally posted by Count Belisarius

I meant as in the cavalry
 
Can you be more specific?  Despite what the developers of Medieval Total War and Rise of Nations think, there was not a specific unit (discernible from the sources) called stratiotai in the late period.  In the latter part of the middle Byzantine period (8th-10th centuries), however, there were cavalry units financed from the revenues of state military lands called stratiotika ktemata.  This might be the origin of the late Byzantine method of remuneration called pronoia or oikonomia, in the opinion of the French scholar Paul Lemerle.
 
See John Haldon and Mark Bartusis for more information.  You can access parts of their books on the Byzantine army on Google Books.


Edited by Byzantine Emperor - 16-Nov-2008 at 19:40
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  Quote Sergeant113 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2008 at 06:27
Small pronoia (military fiefs) were occupied by stradiotai, or soldier as Byzantine Emperor mentioned, who were citizens, mercenaries and even prisoners of war. The stradiotai were the main supply of the Byzzie's declining military force, and later, after the loss of Constantinople to the Ottoman, became mercenaries known as stradiotes in western Europe. Their first service was to Venice during the Veneto-Turkish war. Later, seeing the effectiveness of these stradiotes, other Italian city states either directly employed them or hired them for training their own light cavalry troops. 

My guess is the cavalry in the Total war and rise of nations series is based more on the later mercenary than the original stradiotai :)


Edited by Sergeant113 - 11-Dec-2008 at 06:30
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2009 at 06:45
Originally posted by Sergeant113

Small pronoia (military fiefs) were occupied by stradiotai...
 
I would not call them "fiefs," because it brings to mind the hereditary land holdings of western medieval knights in the socio-economic phenomenon known as "feudalism."
 
The late Byzantine pronoia was not the same thing as a fief.  It was not part of something that was similar to or influenced by western feudalism.  Rather, it was a semi-institutional structure that was developed by the Komnenian and Palaiologan emperors to deal with the decline in resources and manpower from the 11th to 15th centuries.
 
It was not actual land that was owned and farmed by a lord and his peasants.  The Byzantine emperor granted the rights over tax or revenue collection of certain working peasants and buildings in return for some kind of service.  It was owned at all times by the State and was revocable by the emperor.  Also, it was only by a grant of subsequent privileges that the right became hereditary.
 
Originally posted by Sergeant113

My guess is the cavalry in the Total war and rise of nations series is based more on the later mercenary than the original stradiotai
 
Yes, the stradiotai in Rise of Nations do look rather odd in their plate armor and plumed helmets!
 
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  Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2009 at 13:48
The pronaiar system is a curious system. Its a hybrid of different systems and principles.
 
It is part fuedal in that it was suppose to render military service to the ruling Emperor in return for land....and the land's financial (revenue base). In some cases, it was hereditary, throwing another dimension to it.
 
It is also an informal tax farming system in that the owner is able to extract revenue, that in former times would be collected by the cetnral government, but ceded to the holder.
 
But, alas, it was a system that reflected the exigencies of the time.
 
Though retrospectively criticised, it was the best policy at that time by a seasoned and experienced ruler. Its weakness is the lack of competent monitoring or enforcement of effective military duties by the cedee.
 
 
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2009 at 19:49
Originally posted by Nestorian

Though retrospectively criticised, it was the best policy at that time by a seasoned and experienced ruler. Its weakness is the lack of competent monitoring or enforcement of effective military duties by the cedee.
 
Yes, Michael VIII and Andronikos II made effective use of pronoia grants in the late period.  I honestly think this helped the Empire survive over the next two centuries. 
 
After the transfer of the imperial seat and administration back to Constantinople in 1261, the Byzantines basically had to start over because they no longer had a concentration of power in Asia Minor.  To think what could have been done if Michael VIII had stayed at Nicaea!
 
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  Quote Heliocles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2009 at 12:45
These are a couple of temple wall pantings of the late Byzantine period from Crete island:


Betrayal, St. George, Artos, Rethymnon, 1401 A.D. 


Helkomenos, Panagia, Roustika, 1391 A.D.

* http://www.alexandrospress.com/Dated_Byzantine_WallPaintings.htm



The armor of the soldiers seems very western-like

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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2010 at 06:36
Tis a shame that this thread died! But, just in case anyone is interested, I would suggest that you take a look at this painting given to us by Jeroen72, a while ago;

http://img262.imageshack.us/i/ter18zp0.jpg/

My inspection of the garments reveals that the Royal and his horse on our right-center wears a covering depicting the "bicephalous" (Eagle or Corvus) which is a symbol of some particular royals.

It is also possible that the mounted subject in the left center (Arms bearer?) also exposes a sword that also carries the same symbol. He also displays (held high) the royal septre'!

In the above sceen, just what royal family might be represented?

Did Byzantium use the two headed black bird symbol?

The answer it seems can be found here;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-headed_eagle

In part the Wiki article says; "After the recapture of Constantinople and the restoration of the Byzantine Empire, the symbol was used as an emblem of the imperial family, but it is uncertain whether it was the official emblem of the Empire. More recent research has suggested that it was not, its usage being limited to imperial seals and other personal or dynasty symbols such as imperial robes, although there has been no depiction of any Emperor wearing it."

Indeed?
The painting is described thusly; "Easter 1321- Co-emperor Andronicos III assembles an army to overthrow his grand father, Andronicos II."

The representations are reportedly created by men who know their history, etc, as well as military attire of the times. But, as of now, I know of no period representations of the "Andronikos" rulers that makes any representation of the "black bi-celphous corvus / eagle!"

The source of the above representation is;

"All images are from:

The Eastern Romans 330-1461 AD By Raffaele D'Amato and Giorgio Albertini - put out by Concord Publications"

Regards,


Edited by opuslola - 14-Apr-2010 at 07:55
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  Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2010 at 07:18
Opulsola..it's up to us to revive the Thread. :)

As about the picture you posted...
I will post an original image


This is an icon of Christ Pantokrator in Hermitage Museum.
It is fine painted , but its historical significance lies in the two figures painted in the bottom corners of it.
This icon comes from the Pantokrator Monastery in Mount Athos and dates short after its built in 1357.
The two figures depict the founders of the Monastery the brothers Ioannis and Alexios.

Ioannis was Megas Primecirius and Alexios Megas Stratopedarches , High Ranks in Byzantine (Romaic) Novelty.



Note the robe with double head eagles and the luxurius hat, identical to the person on the left in  the picture u posted.

"The title megas stratopedarchēs ("grand master of the camp") was instituted ca. 1255 by the Emperor Theodore II Laskaris (r. 1254–1258) for his chief minister and confidante, George Mouzalon.[5] The mid-14th century Book of Offices of pseudo-Kodinos places the megas stratopedarchēs as the seventh-most senior official of the state below the emperor, ranking between the prōtostratōr and the megas primmikērios. Kodinos claims that he was in charge of provisioning the army, and places four subordinate stratopedarchai under his command: those of the monokaballoi (μονοκάβαλλοι, "single-horsemen"), a cavalry unit; the tzangratores (τζαγγράτορες, "crossbow-men"); the tzakōnes (τζάκωνες, "Tsakonians"), a palace guard originally composed of marines; and the mourtatoi (μουρτάτοι), whom Kodinos presents as palace guards, but whose real nature remains obscure.[4][6] In reality however, in the Palaiologan period the [megas] stratopedarchēs was most likely a mere court title, and did not necessarily entail a military command.[4]" wiki


"In the late 11th century, the dignity of megas prim(m)ikērios ("Grand Primicerius") was established, which ranked very high in court hierarchy well into the Palaiologan period, where he functioned as a chief of ceremonies. Primmikērioi continue to be in evidence in the Byzantine Empire and the Despotate of Morea until their fall to the Ottomans.[1]" wiki

----------------
The two brothers governed Christoupolis (modern Kavala) ,Thassos and the surrounding area of Macedonia, to Strymon River from 1365 (maybe 1350) to 1384. They defended and expanded their territory against Serbs and Turks...and asked aid from Venice.
Alexios died in 1363, possibly defending Thassos island from the Turks, while his brother finally became a monk in the monastery they built in 1384, probably disappointed and unable to react to the advance of Turks.
He died after a couple of years,in 1386.
Their tomb and some personal belongings (not the robe though:) ) are still preserved in Pantokrator Monastery in Athos.
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