The Late Byzantine Military (1204-1461)

Originally posted by Justinian I read through the entire thread, took a while but fascinating stuff, and didn't see this come up so here is a question-- do we have any idea the manpower available to the individual successors like Nicaea and Trebizond after the conquest by the crusaders in 1204?  A follow up to that would be do we know the makeup of their armies; percentage of cavalry, archers, etc.?  My knowledge of the military during the late period is negligable so I don't have much to add to this, plenty to ask though. If this is out of place my apologies.

Dear Saber
I have never said "linear spears extincted". But let's look at this problem in a more wider scope. "Traditional Spear" which had its long history come to an end under the name "Spear". Since its simple design is no longer suit the new developement of Armour. Pike is NOT Spear, modern schollars classify Pike in different category although we still admit it as an improvement from traditional spear. Polearms, is no longer spear, for its extension spread through axe class as well as hammer class. Thus, the name "spear" after 15th century is no longer appropriate for schollatic research because it is not specified while the diversity of its extensions increased dramatically.

Originally posted by Justinian I read through the entire thread, took a while but fascinating stuff, and didn't see this come up so here is a question-- do we have any idea the manpower available to the individual successors like Nicaea and Trebizond after the conquest by the crusaders in 1204?  A follow up to that would be do we know the makeup of their armies; percentage of cavalry, archers, etc.?  My knowledge of the military during the late period is negligable so I don't have much to add to this, plenty to ask though. If this is out of place my apologies.

If you can get hold of a copy of Alex Bryer�s �The Empire of Trebizond and the Pontos�, you should find answers to your questions.

In a nutshell, the Empire was divided into seven Banda [Trikomia, Palaiomatzouka, Matzouka, Trebizond, Gemora, Sourmaina and Rhizaion, sorry for the spelling] and the Thema of Greater Lazia, each of whom provided for their own defence. Evidence for numbers is scant, but the native armed forces could not have been very large as the total populaton stayed around the 250,000 mark throughout its existence. Simon de St. Quentin says the Empire was obliged to provide the Seljuks with a contingent of 200 lances. Most 14^th century armies appear to have numbered no more than a few hundred. In 1335, for example, the loss of about 400 men, depending on which account you read, in the Battle of Cheriana, was considered a major disaster.

Much later in 1460, Ludovico da Bologna stated the army was around 20,000, but there is doubt as regards the accuracy of this figure, as it might include allied contingents or just be rampant exaggeration.

As regards armour and weaponry, a figure from the �Labours of the Months� manuscript from he St. Eugenios monastery in Trebizond dated 1346, shows a heavy cavalryman armed with kite shield and lance very similar to earlier Byzantine representations of soldiers. As this was supposed to be part of a contemporary rural scene, it�s possible Imperial soldiers looked like this. Later by the mid 15^th century Trebizond soldiers looked more like Turks in terms of arms and equipment. Hope this helps; I'm not an expert, I just happen to have a book on the subject.

Originally posted by Alkiviades Extremely interesting topic. Will try and contribute more substantially than just cheering one of these days

Edited by Byzantine Emperor - 26-Feb-2008 at 03:46

Originally posted by Challenger2 Only in hard copy, I'm afraid.

Hello BE and all! I have finally returned after a long hiatus and I am pleased to find that discussion has not been lost without my presence ;).

What an interesting discussion on the Trapezuntine army and its dimensions! I am also frequently interested in discussions such as these. Although I do not have the resources available to me as often to look these up, I might add that I believe the numbers would have been greatly exaggerated.

History may have been written by many victors but I am curious:

I would say 16th-17th.

Originally posted by HeorgltheMad Which battle are we talking about? Which players were involved? From the picture shown above, indeed the walls of Trebizond were very tall. One can easily imagine their own head being shattered by an shell from an arqebusier's rifle. Is this warfare between the Turks and Seljuks?

Originally posted by Ahenobarbus From what I can tell, it appears to be rectangular, as it does not seem to taper towards the bottom.

I fully agree with this, as it even seems to look a bit like a Roman scutum, with the way it curves around the body. It seems to be a complex blending of the old and new ages with the addition of the mace (scepter?) and the breastplate (looks to be single piece with bronze banding). I, however, cannot tell simply from the black/white image who the image is depicting, and can offer no authoritative opinion on the matter.

If it is indeed St. Niketas, is this common in depictions of him? Also, which other saints hold similar descriptions/depictions and include a scepter and shield? Is this common of a "warrior-saint" or is this distinction not set aside from normal saints in Byzantine art history?


Edited by Benedictus - 01-Sep-2008 at 19:43

Patrinos, it is good to see you back at the forum again!  Welcome.