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16 Turk Empires

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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 16 Turk Empires
    Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 15:40
Originally posted by barbar

Can is Kan--Khan--Han.
Suvigi-subegi is the highest military title equals to General in the early Turkic military structure.
 
Kan-Khan-Han is linguistically proven transitions? Explanation you proposed is reasonable but not the only one. Regarding Kanes -- "Kniaz" or "Knes" and Ubigi -- "U Boga" i.e. "with God" sounds reasonable too. As far as I know scholars supporting Iranian elements in Bulgars have another explanation as well. Also, in most Turkic languages khan stands after the name whereas here we have different situation.
 
It is very normal. They were the earliest Turkic migrants, they have strong contact with neighbouring groups.
 The burdon is on your side to prove that Chuvash isn't a Turkic language.
 
Chuvash is very uncommon Turkish language and stands in a separate subfamily. The second thing -- evaluation of the ethnicity of Danube Bulgars making paralels with Chuvashs and Tatars is not very reasonable. People in Old Great Bulgaria might be non-homogenious. We don't know how much. So it is better to consider every language separately. Besides, those languages also chaged being influenced by Turkic tribes invaded later. Especially this is concerned to Tatar language.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 15:43
Originally posted by barbar

Typical revisionist. LOL
How do you interprete the title then?
Even Turcologists interpret it in a different way. But one interpretation as I said is from two slavonic words -- "Kniaz U Boga"
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 15:51
Originally posted by barbar

And aslo from famous historians, and encyclopedias. LOL
also called  Bulgarian,   member of a people known in eastern European history during the Middle Ages. One branch of this people was an ancestor of the modern Bulgarians.

The Bulgars probably originated as a Turkic tribe of Central Asia and arrived in the European steppe west of the Volga River with the Huns about AD 370; retreating with the Huns, they resettled about 460 in an arc of country north and

 
Not so long ago neurons were considered as only bearers of information in the brain. Nowadays nonexcitable glial cells are found to have the same role played in a different way. This is one example for you that basic principles are chaged in science that is free of policial claims.  Science do not stay on the same place and Encyclopaedia Brittanica reflects current position of the major scholars. Geek And what is this "probably" in you citation? Does this word mean "had been finally proved"? Wink
 
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Edited by Anton - 11-Mar-2007 at 17:41
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 15:53
Originally posted by barbar

It is not odd at all. My grandfather came here and expelled others built some houses, then the others came to expel my father, and I started fighting to take my father's land. Wink
 
Again your explanation sounds reasonable but is not the only one. Smile
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  Quote selah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2007 at 07:12
Originally posted by erkut

 
 
Some of these states not Trkish and some of them not even state. İts just propoganda.


What can we expect  from someone who is avatar is betrayer? The link is getting us to to Murat Belge Smile we all know that who is Murat Belge....

Of course it is possible that 16 states can not be Turkic. But I can say you something that will surprise you : It does not write everywhere The memluks are Turk ...The Turks who were slaves to Araps. Memluk means Kle -  Slave.

You must explore more I think...
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  Quote selah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2007 at 07:23
Originally posted by Nick

 
 
 
 
Originally posted by barbar

I know I shouldn't waste my time with you Nick (ShapurII, Master Blaster,Iranian4life). But the following shows your total ignorance. I think I have the responsibility to teach you something.  
 
Originally posted by Nick

  
Well u my friend As I said Turk is not race its just a word to refer to people with common language and history, the root is still not Known and it will never be known. We know the Fact that Mongolian language is a big part of Altic where the Chinese, Japanese languages also came from. Right!
 
 
Chinese is completely different language from Mongolian or Japanese. Chinese belongs to Sino-Tibetan language system. While Mongolian belongs to Altaic Language. Korean and Japanese are their own.
 
For the rest, I think you yourself know you are saying bulsh*t from your political view of Ayranism, so no comment.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  Mr. Barbar I don't think i said anything bad, I know what iam saying.
 
 Have a look at this and you can see how altics are connected with chinese. I would of post more info if you want.


Then read and learn about Gneş Dil Teorisi. And I advise you to study on the original languages. The America has no any cultue. The state became from the companies and trying to destroy the cultures , languages  all others. And now they are trying to erase our history. It is asheme you do not read anything...

More study,more knowledge please ... Come and be my guest and study with together. We can go Iran if you want. We can read Iranian or Gokturk  or my ancestors' writings in their originals. If you want of course...


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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2007 at 02:42
What can we expect  from someone who is avatar is betrayer?
What the hell are you talking about? Beside let me remind you of the CoC: NO DEROGATORY REMARKS TOWARD OTHER MEMBERS. Finally remember that whoever is a trator for some is also a hero for others


The link is getting us to to Murat Belge Smile we all know that who is Murat Belge....
Yes of course er no I have no idea of who Murat Belge is. Never heard of the man so please tell us more.

It does not write everywhere The memluks are Turk ...The Turks who were slaves to Araps. Memluk means Kle -  Slave.
No? You have to be joking, the Mamluks were slaves? And mainly from Turkic tribes? Man, please write some books about it people have to learn more about this great discovery of yours!
For your information Tartar direct influence on Egypt was weak and saying it was a Turkic state is about as sound as saying that late Ummeyad Spain was Slavic or that Byzance was Scandinavian or even that early Muslim Syrian was Grec. The nationality of the stipended administration tends to have little influence on the masses and on the culture.

You must explore more I think...
There is some unwritten rules here I tend to consider very healthy: never tell people that you have the ultimate truth without providing references. Generally, try to avoid all together to assess that you have anykind of absolute wisdom. Mate tough news for you: you are not a Jedi.

Then read and learn about Gneş Dil Teorisi. And I advise you to study on the original languages.
"Yes, learn Basque, Chinese, Japanese, Mongolian, Finnish, Korean and Turkish and then come back otherwise there are really no point exchanging with you."

The America has no any cultue.
Thank you that is constructive and it is at its place in this thread.

The state became from the companies and trying to destroy the cultures , languages  all others.
Of course, for references please see Rambo II and III. Unfortunately for you the American Revolution was partly conducted against the big "companies" which owned entire states (Penn). And who invented the anti-trust legislation? Granted the US are a company-friendly political, economic and cultural system but in what sense are they trying to destroy all other language and culture?
For your record, I am not expecting an answer. Your behaviour is inacceptable. Bashing other members countries is a serious offence. Your criticism as far as I can see is groundless. And it is not because the US are the dominant power in the world that it intitles you to such comments. Anti-americanism (as any other anti-) is not welcomed on AE. If you want to start stupid flame wars, the web is full of place specially designed for it Just not here.

And now they are trying to erase our history. It is asheme you do not read anything...
What in the name of the second sister of Vishnu are you talking about. This is a perfect example of clinical paranoia. What is "you" anyway?

More study,more knowledge please ...
No comment.

We can read Iranian or Gokturk  or my ancestors' writings in their originals.
Once more who are "your ancestors" selah? You have three posts here and people just do not know you. Be more specific and for heaven sake give precise references, I reckon there have been more than one book published in Iranian on the subject.
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  Quote Mordoth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2007 at 14:35

I oppose to that saying " 16 Turkicum Empiricum "

There are 16 great dynasties whom we left behind . Ottoman ( Osmanoglu ) was one of them . Huns ; Sien-Pi's ...etc
 
But Turks have found many states in pre-Islamic eras.
With the proceed of ISlamization took place ; the sedentary  life happened to be a priority and number of founded Empires / States decreased . =)
 
But it is more and more than 16 .
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  Quote Hulegu Han Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2007 at 16:07

What are the reasons for saying that Golden Horde was Turkic state? In fact, Golden Horde is known being a part of vast Mongol empire. Also all rulers were Mongolians because of direct descendants of Chingis khan.  

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  Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 12:11
hulagu han, yes we know that golden horde and chagatai khagantes were ruled by cıngıs hans sons. But this to states became turkic states. not by dynastic. Cingis han had apr total 500-600000 warriors and they spread through the world. This armies majority was turkic, but they were ruled by mongols.The mongols population was smaller then turks. So they were assimilated by the majority. Ex Golden state, chagathai. tHE GOLDEN STATE DİVİDED  and kazan,astrkhan, kırım khaganates formed. They were turkish except dynasticly.
       So the golden horde is not far away to turks. Why this disturbs you. My opinion is we turks and mongols must think the steppe empires near to us.
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  Quote Hulegu Han Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2007 at 13:48
Originally posted by Evrenosgazi

Cingis han had apr total 500-600000 warriors and they spread through the world. This armies majority was turkic, but they were ruled by mongols.The mongols population was smaller then turks.
  Could you explain which Turkic tribes took part in Chingis Khan's army? Do you mean Khereits, Naimans and Tatars who were the basic tribes of empire or Uighurs and Kipchaks whom conquered by Chingis khan and attended his army? We should make this point obvious firstly, then disscus on it.
Originally posted by Evrenosgazi

So they were assimilated by the majority. Ex Golden state, chagathai. tHE GOLDEN STATE DİVİDED  and kazan,astrkhan, kırım khaganates formed. They were turkish except dynasticly.
       So the golden horde is not far away to turks.
  I know majority population were Turks. However, I couldn't understand why Golden horde considered to be only Turkic empire not Mongol-Turkic empire, despite the Mongol ruling classes.   
Originally posted by Evrenosgazi

Why this disturbs you. My opinion is we turks and mongols must think the steppe empires near to us.
 Actually it doesn't disturb me that Mongols and Turks had some strong beneficial relations in history; the main thing I never accept is some Turks' claiming that Mongolian history is part of Turkish history.  
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  Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Apr-2007 at 13:55
Originally posted by Hulegu Han

Originally posted by Evrenosgazi

Cingis han had apr total 500-600000 warriors and they spread through the world. This armies majority was turkic, but they were ruled by mongols.The mongols population was smaller then turks.
  Could you explain which Turkic tribes took part in Chingis Khan's army? Do you mean Khereits, Naimans and Tatars who were the basic tribes of empire or Uighurs and Kipchaks whom conquered by Chingis khan and attended his army? We should make this point obvious firstly, then disscus on it.
Originally posted by Evrenosgazi

So they were assimilated by the majority. Ex Golden state, chagathai. tHE GOLDEN STATE DİVİDED  and kazan,astrkhan, kırım khaganates formed. They were turkish except dynasticly.
       So the golden horde is not far away to turks.
  I know majority population were Turks. However, I couldn't understand why Golden horde considered to be only Turkic empire not Mongol-Turkic empire, despite the Mongol ruling classes.   
Originally posted by Evrenosgazi

Why this disturbs you. My opinion is we turks and mongols must think the steppe empires near to us.
 Actually it doesn't disturb me that Mongols and Turks had some strong beneficial relations in history; the main thing I never accept is some Turks' claiming that Mongolian history is part of Turkish history.  
Yes you are right here. We cannot say only turkic. They were mongol-turkic empires you are right. Yes uygurs, kırgız,kıpchak. some authors mentions kereits and naymans as turk. I am not that sure. These empires were combination of steppe people. Like gktrk, uygur, Hsingnu. And last I am with you that mongol history is separate
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Apr-2007 at 13:59
Hi Hulegu Han. Best wishes. I was just wondering if you could start a new topic on old Mongolian language, providing us with the old texts and materials, since you're a native speaker. I'm just doing a sentence structure comparison among Altaic language. I really appreciate this if you do me this favor.

Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Apr-2007 at 18:03
Marhabbal
No? You have to be joking, the Mamluks were slaves? And mainly from Turkic tribes? Man, please write some books about it people have to learn more about this great discovery of yours!
 
Are you being serious? your meant to be an administrator for this section, I really hope your joking...
 
- Mamluks were slaves
 
- Mamluks of the Abbasids were comprimised mostly of Turks, the Mamluk state of the Levant was comprimised of a ruling elite of Kipchak Turks and later there were Circassians.
 
They were slaves who revolted and took over their old slave masters.
 

 
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2007 at 00:35
Yes I was of course joking
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  Quote Hulegu Han Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2007 at 05:10
Originally posted by gok_toruk

Hi Hulegu Han. Best wishes. I was just wondering if you could start a new topic on old Mongolian language, providing us with the old texts and materials, since you're a native speaker. I'm just doing a sentence structure comparison among Altaic language. I really appreciate this if you do me this favor.

Hi, it's honourable to do what you said and I really want it. However, I don't have enough materials and texts in old Mongolian language; since I am living in abroad now.  But I hope it won't take me long to find what you need. Anyway your idea is brillaint, thanks!! 
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2007 at 18:20
Sorry Maharbbal Embarrassed

Edited by Bulldog - 01-May-2007 at 18:21
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2007 at 19:45
I was just tired of people poping up stating the obvious with a overly idiotic nationalist agenda (nationalism isn't brilliant by himself so no need to make it sound more stupid then necessary). I guess the ironic side of  the comment wasn't clear enough.
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2007 at 14:41
I really appreciate this Hulegu Han, but I hope you don't go under so much trouble; I mean I hope it doesn't take your time much. I'm counting the hours, am I? No, I'm counting the minutes, am I? No, I'm counting the seconds to hearing from you.
 
You might want to see this word comparison and reconstruction for Altaic languages also:
 


Edited by gok_toruk - 03-May-2007 at 14:44
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2007 at 18:03

Ghoried were not Turk! Plus when we say turk we means native Turk of afghanistan... they have nothing to do with Turks of Turkey whom are racially are NOT turk by only their language is Turkish... or those Chink looking Turks of Central Asia whom are mixed with Mongol.

 

Undeniable Proof that Pashtoons are Ghorids

 

First proof:

The Shansabani were known as a tribe of people; and the people of Ghor lived in a tribal society governed by Chieftans.

"

Among the numerous Ghorid chiefs, the Shansabani tribe had the most authority over all the other Ghorid tribes "

 

 

it is widely known that Pashtoons are the only existing Tribal peoples in the region who are not of Mongolian stock. Therefore this is key evidence that Ghorians were in fact Pashtoons.

Second Proof:
If you look at the Geneology of the Shansabani Tribe; you notice that the Patriarch of the Shansabani rulers possesses the name "Suri" ; Suri is a widely known Pashtun tribal name and also the name of a Pashtun conquerer Sher Shah Suri.

"

SHANSABANI
Sayf ud-Din Suri..............................1146-1149
Baha' ud-Din Sam I.................................1149
Aladdin Jahan-Suz Husain II...................1149-1161
Sa'if ud-Din Muhammad.........................1161-1163
Abu'l-Fath Muhammad Shams ad-Din (in Firuzkuh)1163-1203 with...
Shihab ud-Din Muhammad (in Ghazna)............1173-1206
Ghiyath ud-Din Mahmud.........................1206-1212 with...
Taj ud-Din Yldz Mu'izzi (in Ghazna).........1206-1215 with...
Baha' ud-Din Sam II...........................1212-1213

"

most important of all

 

edit

 

 

This is from famous Ghanvids historicans Baihaqis accounts where he mentions that a need for an interpolator between Turk king Massud(sultan mahmod son) the learned companion who already spoke Turkish and Farsi and the people of that region in Ghor. That clearly indicates that the region was not speaking Turkish or Farsi. And if they were not speaking Farsi then what was their language?  there are also other numerous accounts such as the accounts of Minhaaj Saraj from that era and others who gives similar accounts

 





Edited by Maharbbal - 18-May-2007 at 19:19
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