post-WW2 Soviet army.

"ok, let's excuse you for this little brainwash that you were hearing from your new goverment, who basically serves USA, like a dog.

Serves the USA? Estonia can hardly be called a dog of the US. I don't remember any real interaction between the two countries other than the Bush visit last year. We are mainly dealing with the EU. All you can hear about the US in Estonian press is the common Iraqi and Afghan victim lists. I doubt if any Estonian knows anyone in America other than Arnold Schwarzenegger and G. W. Bush.
And our governemnt makes no real statements about the US if you knew anything, the average news about the US might be once a year. Propaganda indeed, we, the Balts have with our independent minds tried to fight our way to the west for over a 100 years now, but i bet my daddys farm that there were dozens of US agents here trying to change our peoples minds in the first years of the 1900's for their future world domination policy. Yeah, right.

Anyway, let's do it the long way:

Here is an argument:

1) You can not free yourself.

Yes, you demolished our army and murdered our intelligence, preventing any chance of that happening in any independent scenario

2) You are under germans.

Yes. 1941.-1944.

3) Soviets are treating you better than germans.

No you didn't treat us better, the Soviets came in, murdered our intelligence, politicians, deported our people. 10,000 Estonians of which 500 were Jews. That is percentagely pretty gross for the Jewish population here because they only numbered some 5,000 out of over 1 million people. A clear sign of anti-Semitic attacks against the Estonian Jewish population who enjoyed one of the most liberal ways of life in the west right here in Estonia. As the lists of the people to be deported were already being completed during the entire previous decade of the 1930's Stalin had targeted the local Jews as the main target of repressions. And also out of the 10,000 deported, just about half, with only a minor difference were females. Equality in everything eh?

The German invasion brought another dictatorship of the same scale of totalitarian insanity, but it must be mentioned that it prevented another Soviet deportation, this was to be on a much greater scale (scheduled for somewhere in July 1941. IIRC), planned and signed by yours truly, Lavrenti Beria. The German repressions were far more minor on the local populous, alhtough as time went on, no romanticism was held by Estonians, nazis were brown communists and the hatred was there.

4) What do you chose, for soviets to come or for germans to stay?"

I don't have to choose neither, as i hate them both, being anti-humane systems.

Although the plan was, to hold Estonia free of the Soviets until Berlin fell and then use the Atlantic charter to reclaim our sovereign right for these lands, ours as they had been for endless generations. Too bad we had been sold by the West before that.

And also i would have wanted the D-Day to have embarked from the Balkans as Churchill once planned, so the Allies could have come between us and you and freedom would have been ours as we had been striving for all this time in our minds and souls.

We wanted democracy, Russians have always wanted us to accept and worship their dictatorship for another one. You just don't understand that we don't live well under a czar, we are the west.

Illuminati wrote: "First off, they aren't dogs. Secondly, they have the ability to choose their own path, which is something that they were denied for decades by Moscow. And that's what matters. The fact that they aren't choosing to remain close with Moscow should tell you something about Soviet rule."

Indeed, look at Moscows dogs now - still going to empty markets and looking out of their concrete block apartment bulidings gazing upon their corrupt leaders who bow before Putin and whose people haven't seen a pay raise since the 1960's. Going under Putin means that the years will start running backwards for us, in 15 years we would be back in stagnation, no thank you!






Edited by Kalevipoeg - 23-Jul-2006 at 07:20

Originally posted by Illuminati Being freed of German fascism, only to have to live under Soviet communism for decades is not a relief. Your argument falls apart when you look at the way in which the USSR put down the Hungarian revolution. Communism is just as bloody as Fascism. It makes sense if you think about it. Communism and fascism are flawed extremist ideologies, both of which require fear and tyranny to keep themselves afloat. ok, let's excuse you for this little brainwash that you were hearing from your new goverment, who basically serves USA, like a dog. First off, they aren't dogs. Secondly, they have the ability to choose their own path, which is something that they were denied for decades by Moscow. And that's what matters. The fact that they aren't choosing to remain close with Moscow should tell you something about Soviet rule.

So, it was better under germans

    
Let's see how they will be supported if they suddenly, without any pressure willl decide to go communism (let's just imagine that happening) Do you think thebn US will be supporting them as a regime? No, then how is it freedom of coice?
    

Edited by Russian - 26-Jul-2006 at 11:35

Originally posted by Russian Yes, I can, was the purpose of war in Afghanistan to destroy the country and kill all it's residents?

... so the only method that the Soviet military could use to showcase their unmatched skills was "hack and slash" i.e. massive firepower rolling over the landscape like a scythe? That was their great advantage?

In the beginning of the cold war USSR had the most powerful land army but US had bigger navy and airforce.But dont forget that if it wasn's Russia now all europeans would speak german.Russia had the most important role in defeating the nazi germany.After WW2 russia was behind USA but after that in the end of 60s USSR become te most powerful nation with the biggest peacetime army that world have ever seen.The largest land forces,most powerful airdefence,biggest airforce,biggest nuclear arsenal,very strong fleet(USSR had two-three times more submarines than US).

In fact USSR fought against 75 % of german armed forces,while USA with UK and others fought against 25 %.If Hitler didnt attack USSR germany would conquer UK and would be impossible for USA to win.

Hey we wander away from the subject.Lets argue in another topic.The question here is the post ww2 soviet army.In the beginning they were behind USA,but after that Soviet Army become the strongest.

Originally posted by Desperado That's not true: during 06/03/-14/03/1945 the 2nd Panzer and 6th SS Panzer Armies launch a major counter-attack from Lake Balaton towards Budapest. The battle for Zeelow heights also included major German armored forces.

In George Forty's The Reich's Last Gamble I count a total of 16 Panzer divisions, either SS or Werhmacht; these do no include what amounts to at least two dozen Panzergrenadier divisions.  It, however, includes even a Reserve Panzer Division!  On the Seelow Heights on the major armoured detachments was the 502 SS Heavy Panzer Battalion, but the majority of the troops defending against Zhukov's offensive were Volksstrum and VGD forces, not armoured.  I never said all of the armour was stripped from the Eastern Front, but it's quite obvious that the majority of it was. 

Quoting from When Titans Clashed, Jonathan M. House and David M. Glantz, "It was worth noting, however, that the growing concentration of German machanized forces and logistical support in the West made the Soviet tanks in the East far easier than it would have otherwise been."

The German shuffling of mechanized forces to Hungary also helped the Army Group A to suffer from the lack of sufficient armour to stop the Soviet spearheads over the Spree River and Seelow Heighs.

The fact is a fact: you've said that the soviets didn't meet serious tank resistance after the Ardennes operation, which is not correct-the german and hungarian forces included nearly 900 tanks/assault guns/panzerjagers during Balaton/Budapest operation and more than 1200 during the Soviet Vistula-Oder Offensive. In April 1945 the Panzerwaffe still could field more than a 1000 tanks and self-propelled artillery pieces on the Berlin direction.

"... Even by the 1970s only the core of the Red Army was equipped with T-64s, while the rest was equipped with T-55s, the horrendous T-62 and the later upgrade T-72. So, although the T-64 was the zenith of Soviet tank design, IMO, unfortunately they didn't have enough to match that of the West. "
-I'll agree with you that T-64 was the zenith of the Soviet tank design, but i'm curious how much of T-64's were enough to "match that of the West" according to you. About the T62 I'll disagree: comparable in armor protection with it's western counterparts it had better gun.
The western attitude towards the Soviet technology generally copies that of the nazis: "der russische unter menschen" and that of the Americans towards the Japanese "under the bamboo curtain" before 1941. And thank God that another western myth of supremacy isn't busted on the battlefield.


    

Edited by Desperado - 15-Sep-2006 at 16:40

Originally posted by J.M.Finegold However, given their defeat at the Bulge the Soviets faced no major armoured resistance

-IMHO your generalisation is wrong. Yes, the Ardennes took a lot of german armor, but the Panzerwaffe still made major resistance like in the Konrad operation, which I don't know why, you refuse to take into account.

Originally posted by Russian Ok, russians using numbers in WW2 is somewhat misconception, proposed by West, here, look, Axis soldiers lost in the war: 9 millions. Soviet soldiers lost in the war, in actual combats: 13 million, other 13 million were population, civilians, who were tortured to death in camps. The astatistics you get are western, sometimes biased, my dad was born in 1946, he saw these armies, he said that if Soviets would go, NOTHING in hell would stop them, US and Britain together would not stop the advance, that's from a person who actually saw all these armies, my granddad fought, he also was saying same thing. And finally germans were saying that there was no army to compare to USSR Red Army. Tanks were best, artilery was best, anti aircraft guns were best, only the aircrafts maybe were not as good as western, but definitely would take by the number. Some americans entertain the idea of possibility for US going in to war then with USSR, however, they just don't have a CLUE of what they are talking about, usual solders would be scared to go in to war with soviets And guess what, USSR had 13 million more soldiers in active servise RIGHT AFTER THE WAR, and it was reduced to 7. UK now actually tries to defend Soviet contribution in to war, saying that we shouldn't forget private Ivan, who defeated the germans, and it is striking how ignorant people in US are about the war. Soviet Union had more tanks, trucks, people, artillery than Allies and tanks or artillery more than the rest of the world. It is a big myth that USSR lost much more than germans in battles, it was relative to the time, in the end, soviets were killing more germans per one soviet army soldier. ok, in the beginning of the war, gemramns killed more russians per german soldier, in the end, it was opposite. Red army was worked out together, by the end of the war, they all knew what to do perfectly, the command was competent. And dear Mosquito, west couldn't do ANYTHING to Red Army, if Stalin wanted, ther ewould be NO europe WHATSOEVER, red arly would simply destroy it. Cowardness of the west was rightfull, ther ewas something to be affraid of, US and Britain conventional forces would be WIPED OUT by Red Army in less than a month or two. LOL, USSR was THE most powerful nation in the world, my friend, THE most powerful, production capabilities were such that one historian said: "USSR would SINK America with tanks" US production didn't lie near Soviet. Should US go to war with USSR, it would undoubtly lose on the continent. You say: US had nukes, but how much? Trueman was yalling, LET"S BOMB THEM, WE HAVE NUKES, but when it was explained to him that should we bomb USSR, and we clearly do not have enough bombs to do serious damage, and do not have perfect way to deliver them (remember, it was aicraft then, which can be intercepted before it reaches target, and not intercepted just by air, but also from ground, which would be completely in soviet control), it was explained to him by Chief of Staff that it is really not the time to f*** around with USSR, and he calmed down. You are right also saying that there was a lot of experienced soldiers, army was really professional, really worked together, and could destroy any enemy that would dare face them with overwhelming numbers and tremendous firepower. You wanna know more, read OPERATION UNTHINKABLE. You will understand why US and UK were so afraid of USSR, do research on these tw words.