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Winterhaze13
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Topic: Communism Posted: 16-Nov-2004 at 16:58 |
What do you aspiring or distinguished scholars think about communism. Do you think Marxism is a good idea undermind by many of its followers? Why did is ultimately fail? Why is it stigmatized?
Edited by Winterhaze13
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Imperator Invictus
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Posted: 16-Nov-2004 at 18:52 |
Marxism does not work because simply because human nature is greedy, so
we cannot have a classless society where everone is supposed to be
doing everything right. In a society with about 20 people, it is
possible to have everyone working well. But in a large society, there
will always be those who want to exploit others. Unlike bees and ants,
humans are more individualistic and tend to work for themeslves.
The formation of authoritarian communist nations already proved that Marxism was wrong about a classless society.
What's considered communism is debatable. But I guess it's an application of socialist idealology.
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Slickmeister
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Posted: 16-Nov-2004 at 19:25 |
In America as well as many capitalist NATO nations, communism has been given a pretty bad rap. Why? because it is not of their country's political agenda. One of the problems is that Josef Stalin was more as a totalitarian leader than that of a communist. He was very oppressive and killed millions of people. That is a similar problem is that that is how the country is run. North Korea is led by a maniac and the build up on nuclear weapons is on and that focus off from who really matters--the people.
Communism is a good idea and it looks good on paper but the world has yet to see a communist government that can survive. I mean yeh it works until some idiot decides that buying up nuclear weapons is more important than feeding and supplying necessities to the citizens of the nation that is being governed. I'm not saying that democracy is the answer because it clearly is not. Any government that is as driven by the economy as the United states is a formula for environmental disaster, and so far, it has been. The problem with majority rule is that it is simply, popularity rule. The majority isnt always right and when change needs to be implimented for the benefit of everyone, it can't be done. The government of this country has no juristiction to fix the severe environmental problems that are facing our country today. That means that private organizations have to clean up after everyone and they rely on funding from donations or government grants. However because the clean up is not the popular thing, donations will be minimal and the government can only justify to the people giving a small amount as well. This results in a minimal impact by the mentioned organizations. The only thing that people care about is money and people just arent concerned with these issues and if they are, they are not willing to sacrifice enough money and the damage just goes on and on. I guess what i am trying to say is that in a democracy, when something needs to get done, it is only done if the idea is popular, which is why this things are constantly neglected. Communist countries just need to be run right.
Edited by Slickmeister
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Genghis
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Posted: 16-Nov-2004 at 20:15 |
I loath communism in theory and practice, even when it is not hijacked by totalitarian leaders it is a flawed system for providing basic human needs and violates the right of a man to profit from his own skills.
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Kubrat
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Posted: 16-Nov-2004 at 20:28 |
Spoken like a true capitalist .
I agree with both Imperator Invictus and with Slickmeister.
Genghis, I just want to point out to you that capitalism and democracy
are far from perfect. You also have greedy manipulators working
in such societies, although often wearing a mask or working behind the
scenes. Also, in democracy and capitalism, often one man is
robbed of what he deserves for his skills and knowledge just so another
can profit.
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Hell is empty and all the devils are here.
-William Shakespeare
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Lannes
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Posted: 16-Nov-2004 at 21:05 |
Originally posted by Kubrat
one man is robbed of what he deserves for his skills and knowledge |
Thus describes Communism, and for that matter, why it won't work: People like to receive what they earn.
Edited by Lannes
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τρέφεται δέ, ὤ Σώκρατης, ψυχὴ τίνι;
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Genghis
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Posted: 16-Nov-2004 at 21:13 |
Capitalism is not perfect, but it's far closer to it than any other system human beings could devise or impliment.
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JanusRook
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Posted: 16-Nov-2004 at 22:19 |
Communism can only work in a small society of individuals in a close relationship with each other. Such as a kibbutz. However a communist society is a perfect society, because at the base of it is the fundamentals of human charity. Think of what you would want on your tombstone.
"He gave everything he had for others" or
"He saw to himself first, without worry of others."
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Guests
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Posted: 17-Nov-2004 at 07:47 |
One of the problems
is that Josef Stalin was more as a totalitarian leader than that of a
communist. He was very oppressive and killed millions of people. That
is a similar problem is that that is how the country is run. North
Korea is led by a maniac and the build up on nuclear weapons is on and
that focus off from who really matters--the people. |
Indeed that's the problem.
Many people call the victims of Stalin's purge, the Khmer Rouge killing
fields, etc. vicitims of communism, but they aren't. Communism is above
all an economic system. Communism can be in a democracy (unfortunately
that's rare) or in a dictatorship. The people who were killed by Stalin
weren't killed because Stalin was a communist but because Stalin was a
dictator. It's strange that people never call victims of communist
regimes victims of comminism, but they don't call the vicitims caused
by capitalist dictatorships (Pinochet, Papa Doc, numerous other Latin
American tyrants, the Greek colonel's junta, Soeharto, Apartheid South
Africa, etc.) victims of capitalism.
Everyone knows that in Mao's China some 30 million people needlessly
starved to death. that was indeed a great crime. But little people know
that in Mao's regime there were built medical posts and other
facilities that many peoples lives. In 1950 the child mortality in
India and China was about the same. In the next years the child
mortality drastically dropped in China, in India it stayed about the
same. It is estimated that in the period between 1950 and 1980 in India
every 8 years the same amount of people died from easy curable deseases in India as died during the Great Leap Forwards in China.
I once found on the internet an exerpt from an interview with the Dalai Lama about communism
Q: You have often stated that you would like to achieve a synthesis between Buddhism and
Marxism. What is the appeal of Marxism for you?
A: Of all the modern economic theories, the economic system of Marxism is founded on moral
principles, while capitalism is concerned only with gain and profitability. Marxism is concerned
with the distribution of wealth on an equal basis and the equitable utilization of the means of
production. It is also concerned with the fate of the working classes--that is, the majority--as
well as with the fate of those who are underprivileged and in need, and Marxism cares about the
victims of minority-imposed exploitation. For those reasons the system appeals to me, and it
seems fair. I just recently read an article in a paper where His Holiness the Pope also pointed
out some positive aspects of Marxism.
As for the failure of the Marxist regimes, first of all I do not consider the former USSR, or
China, or even Vietnam, to have been true Marxist regimes, for they were far more concerned
with their narrow national interests than with the Workers' International; this is why there were
conflicts, for example, between China and the USSR, or between China and Vietnam. If those
three regimes had truly been based upon Marxist principles, those conflicts would never have
occurred.
I think the major flaw of the Marxist regimes is that they have placed too much emphasis on the
need to destroy the ruling class, on class struggle, and this causes them to encourage hatred and
to neglect compassion. Although their initial aim might have been to serve the cause of the
majority, when they try to implement it all their energy is deflected into destructive activities.
Once the revolution is over and the ruling class is destroyed, there is nor much left to offer the
people; at this point the entire country is impoverished and unfortunately it is almost as if the
initial aim were to become poor. I think that this is due to the lack of human solidarity and
compassion. The principal disadvantage of such a regime is the insistence placed on hatred to
the detriment of compassion.
The failure of the regime in the former Soviet Union was, for me, not the failure of Marxism but
the failure of totalitarianism. For this reason I still think of myself as half-Marxist, half-Buddhist | Apart from the half-Buddhist part, I agree with this.
Edited by MixcoatlToltecahtecuhtli
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Tobodai
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Posted: 17-Nov-2004 at 15:48 |
tcommunbism is for mindless ants, not for people. Humans are greedy, greed propels human progress and regulation often interfers as much as it helps. No system is perfect, indeed, I would argue all monetary systems are inheirently bad, but the market is th emost efficient and communism is the most stupid.
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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Omnipotence
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Posted: 17-Nov-2004 at 17:06 |
"Communism can only work in a small society of individuals in a close relationship with each other. "
Well said, one example would be the family. Communism leans on human morality while captalism leans on human greed. Of course, when it comes to family, there is a much higher degree of human charity because it's their wife, children, ect... that is included. But when it comes to absolute strangers on the other side of the country...
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Kubrat
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Posted: 17-Nov-2004 at 20:34 |
Well, you are all correct.... to a certain point.
One of the thing, especially in the rural areas, in Communist Bulgaria
(I use Bulgaria because I am most familiar with it, not to
single-mindedly popularize it) which I view as very good, was the
generousity and hospitality of the people. Now, I don't know
whether this is just because people are generally like this (from your
above posts, I think it isn't the case), or because the people really
believed in Communism. In fact, most of the supporters of the
Communist regime came from the rural areas (which is very ironic since
the Communists stressed modernization and urbanization).
Another point I want to make is that maybe greed is an aspect you learn
as you are growing up, being raised, just like hate. Maybe it
isn't a necessary part of human nature, just one that is passed on.
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Hell is empty and all the devils are here.
-William Shakespeare
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JanusRook
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Posted: 19-Nov-2004 at 13:35 |
In fact, most of the supporters of the Communist regime came from the rural areas (which is very ironic since the Communists stressed modernization and urbanization).
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I don't think communism being strong and starting in rural areas is ironic at all as these are traditional people who care more about their family and neighbors well being rather than how much money than can get.
Another point I want to make is that maybe greed is an aspect you learn as you are growing up, being raised, just like hate. Maybe it isn't a necessary part of human nature, just one that is passed on.
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Greed I feel is a very essential part to human nature, it's the survival mechanism. I'll steal food from this guy because if I don't eat I'll die, is a very good thing to have ingrained into a survivalists mindset. However as humans we have the ability to determine when survival is necessary such as if I steal food from my brother than he'll die and so will his 8 children whereas I have none so our common genes will not be passed on (of course that's all subconscious). But that is where greed is taught to be either accepted or unaccepted.
If you'd really like to see the relationship between the nature vs. nurture of greed do some research on the Ik tribe.
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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
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Tobodai
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Posted: 19-Nov-2004 at 15:06 |
Greed is the most productive trait a person can have, it has forged nations, been issential to invention, and created innovtion.
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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JanusRook
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Posted: 19-Nov-2004 at 17:55 |
Actually I would say envy drives those things.
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Kubrat
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Posted: 19-Nov-2004 at 19:05 |
Greed I feel is a very essential part to human nature, it's the
survival mechanism. I'll steal food from this guy because if I don't
eat I'll die, is a very good thing to have ingrained into a
survivalists mindset. However as humans we have the ability to
determine when survival is necessary such as if I steal food from my
brother than he'll die and so will his 8 children whereas I have none
so our common genes will not be passed on (of course that's all
subconscious). But that is where greed is taught to be either accepted
or unaccepted. |
You say that greed is a mechanism of survival. I don't think it
is. Survival is one thing. Greed is another. Greed is
having enough... and then wanting even more. Survival is getting
what you need, and nothing else. And human ingenuity is such that
there is always more than one solution to any problem. I'm sure
that you would leave enough for the stranger to eat today, that you
would share, until the very last possible moment. I don't think
that is greed. Greed is lining your pockets with gold.
If you'd really like to see the relationship between the nature
vs. nurture of greed do some research on the Ik tribe. |
What is the Ik tribe?
Greed is the most productive trait a person can have, it has forged
nations, been issential to invention, and created innovtion. |
No, it is self-preservation that forged nations and inventions, and the
search for safer and easier existance. Which is different than
greed, I think. But greed does play a large factor. But not
I think in inventing something.. you can't force yourself to invent
something .
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Hell is empty and all the devils are here.
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Christscrusader
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Posted: 19-Nov-2004 at 19:11 |
What do people think about this statement?
"People should either be fully ruled by the government, or be fully free of government.
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-Jc
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Tobodai
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Posted: 19-Nov-2004 at 19:42 |
Originally posted by JanusRook
Actually I would say envy drives those things. |
well, that too, its very simialr to greed.
hmmph, that may explain why the west has become so technologically innovative in the past few hundred years, competition, both feudalism and many ethnicities spurred on more capable technolgy to rule and kill people.
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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Slickmeister
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Posted: 20-Nov-2004 at 13:57 |
[QUOTE=JanusRook]Actually I would say envy drives those things.
Well, the 2 (greed and envy) can be used interchangebly
Edited by Slickmeister
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Kubrat
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Posted: 21-Nov-2004 at 09:43 |
Well, the 2 (greed and envy) can be used interchangebly |
Well, if you look at it from a distant perspective, yes. But the devil is in the details. Greed is:
An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one
needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth |
And envy is:
A feeling of discontent and resentment aroused by and in conjunction with desire for the possessions or qualities of
another. |
They sometimes lead to the same outcome, but they are not the same.
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Hell is empty and all the devils are here.
-William Shakespeare
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