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Altaic theory to be questioned:

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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Altaic theory to be questioned:
    Posted: 29-May-2006 at 00:03
I came across the following article on the web about the Altaic theory, and want to know about your opinions. I hilighted some parts which I think important to save your time.  Sorry for this copy/pasting. I think such an useful article deserves a small space in our forum.
 

The Altaic languages are a group of languages and language families, widespread in and dominating parts of Central and Northern Asia. The name Altaic alludes to the Altai mountain range in southern Siberia, where nineteenth-century scholars located the original habitat of the speakers of these languages.

Linguists usually consider the Turkic, Mongolian, and Tungusic languages, often referred to as micro-Altaic, as the principal members of this group; some scholars also include Korean and Japanese, referred to as macro-Altaic. While linguists agree that all these languages show a high degree of structural uniformity and many shared lexical (word-related) and, to a lesser degree, morphological (form-related) materials, the "Altaic theory" continues to be one of the most controversial issues in contemporary comparative linguistics.

The gist of this debate is the question of whether these language familiesor a subset of themare to be viewed as members of a higher-level family of languages (often called a macrofamily), for which a common linguistic ancestor (a protolanguage) can be reconstructed and from which the languages diverged, or whether the common traits and elements found in these languages arose during millennia-long processes of "areal convergence," or large-scale language contact, of originally unrelated languages.

The Altaic Debate

Scholars noticed the high degree of structural similarity shared by the Altaic languages as early as the late eighteenth century and thus assumed that the languages were genetically related. One salient typological feature is vowel harmony: words may contain only vowels belonging to one of two or more mutually exclusive classes, such as front versus back or rounded versus unrounded vowels. The principal morphological technique in Altaic languages is that of agglutination: largely monofunctional affixes (almost exclusively suffixes) added to the roots they modify, in a fixed order, and without the high degree of fusion common, for instance, in Indo-European languages (as in the Latin word librorum ["of the books"], where the ending -rum simultaneously carries the functions of plural and genitive). The basic word order in ordinary sentences in Altaic languages is generally subjectobjectverb; modifying constituents, like adjectives, always precede the constituent they modify; postpositions rather than prepositions are found.

Modern linguists, however, no longer view such typological similarities as indicative of genetic relations, mostly because the similarities can change (especially in situations of intensive language contact), and because these and other phenomena once viewed as "typically Altaic" traits occur on a global scale unknown when the Altaic theory was first developed.

Furthermore, critics of the Altaic hypothesis often point to the fact that some typological hallmarks of Altaic languages are historical innovations. For instance, the earliest Mongolian texts (thirteenth century CE) have elements atypical for Altaic (when compared with Old Turkic, for instance), including grammatical gender, no rigid verbfinal word order, and adjectives following rather than preceding nouns. Mongolian later developed into a "typical" Altaic language. Somewhat similarly, in Tungusic, the Evenki and Even languages, spoken on the northern and western fringes of the language family's territory in central Siberia and Mongolia, are typologically much more divergent from the Altaic archetype than those spoken in the center, where they have been in contact with Mongolian for centuries.

Proponents of the genetic relations theory usually maintain that the Altaic languages share many lexical items from all semantic spheres, including basic vocabulary. These lexical commonalities are characterized by highly regular phonological correspondences, the most important criterion for genetic relationship. A considerable number of shared morphological elements (affixes) have been identified, and all these observations imply that these languages share a common origin.

Critics of the genetic approach to Altaic linguistics often argue that while the great number of lexical commonalities cannot be denied, most if not all can be explained as early borrowings. In micro-Altaic, the most readily identifiable layers of borrowings are Turkic loans in proto-Mongolian and Mongolian loans in proto-Tungusic. From the time of Ghengis Khan (c. 11621227) on, Mongolian elements begin to abound in Turkic languages, and a thin layer of Tungusic loans in early Mongolian is sometimes acknowledged. In particular, the fact that many words common to Turkic and Mongolian show, in Mongolian, traits of one of the subgroups of Turkic, namely the Bolgharic branch (of which modern Chuvash is the sole survivor), leads to the hypothesis that a strong proto-Bolgharic influence on proto-Mongolian is responsible for most commonalities in the two language families. The borrowing hypothesis is further strengthened by the fact that the Altaic languages share few lexical items that belong to those semantic areas that are generally thought to be stable over time and least amenable to linguistic borrowing. Altaicists claim that phonological correspondences between the languages are highly regular, which presupposes the acceptance of many etymologies; these are problematical for numerous reasons, including philological problems of determining the earliest Turkic, Mongolian, and other forms that alone should enter any external comparison; problems of inexact or vague semantic mapping in forms and words compared; and so on. The systems of correspondences proposed by Altaicists contain gaps, as well. Morphological elements compared by Altaicists are mostly confined to derivational morphology and usually involve very short morphemes, often consisting of merely one phoneme, the functions of which may be vague.

Some critics of the Altaic theory maintain that, once all comparisons for which these and similar objections may be brought forward are removed, the remaining potentially comparable items are so few that they could all be explained as chance similarities. Others do not completely reject the Altaic theory, believing that the evidence, when sifted through, will justify a leaner version of the theory.

All these points have been and continue to be addressed by proponents of the theory; both the methodological principles (such as insisting on allowing internal reconstruction of proto-Mongolian, proto-Turkic, and so on always to precede external Altaic-level comparisons) and the factual claims (for example, the acceptability of individual etymologies and sound-correspondences based on them) of their critics have been challenged. Thus, the Altaic debate still continues and has developed into an ideal testing ground for the methodology of assessing (or rejecting) the genetic relations of languages in general.

Stefan Georg

Further Reading

Doerfer, Gerhard. (1963) Trkische und mongolische Elemente im Neupersischen, Band I: Mongolische Elemente im Neupersischen. Wiesbaden, Germany: Harrassowitz, esp. 51106.

Georg, Stefan, Peter Michalove, Alexis Manaster Ramer, and Paul J. Sidwell. (1998) "Telling General Linguists about Altaic." Journal of Linguistics 35: 6598.

Janhunen, Juha. (1996) Manchuria: An Ethnic History. Helsinki, Finland: Finno-Ugrian Society.

Martin, Samuel Elmo. (1996) Consonant Lenition in Korean and the Macro-Altaic Question. Honolulu, HI: Center for Korean Studies.

Miller, Roy Andrew. (1996) Languages and History: Japanese, Korean, and Altaic. Bangkok, Thailand: White Orchid Press.

Poppe, Nicholas. (1965) Introduction to Altaic Linguistics. Wiesbaden, Germany: Harrassowitz.

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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2006 at 01:21
verry intresting I need to give this a little more tought
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 03:38
Majority of scolars today consider a genetic relationship between Altaic languages to have been proved and hence regard these languages as a language famiy, based this conclusion not only similarities in vocabulary and language structure, but on well-established systematic sound correspondence as well.
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 03:45
Phonology:
 
The phonological (sound) systems of the Alatica languages tend to be simple. Syllables are usually open, ending in a vowel, most often of the pattern consonant-vowel (CV). The clustering of consonants is unusual in Altaic languages and relatively few consonants are used. The vowel system reconstructed for proto-Altaic bears some similarity to the 'cubic' vowel system of Turkish, which is a symmetrical system of eight vowel phonemes defined by these phonological oppositions: back/nonback, high/nonhigh, and round (labial)/nonround(nonlabial).
 
                    nonback                                      back
        round            nonround                   round           nonround
high    y                       i                               u             
nonhigh                       e                              o                    a
 
Mongolian and Manchu- Tungus merged /i/ and /w/; the latter eliminated in addition /y/ through various mergers with /i/ and /u/.
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 03:52

The Altaic languages exhibit two kinds of harmony, affecting the vowels and velar stops. In platal vowel harmony, all the vowels of a given word are back or they are all front; further, front velar consonants /k g/ occure only with front vowels and back (deep) velars /q g/ only with back vowels. Exceptions are allowed in certain compounds and borrowings. The Manchu- Tungus languages have merged certain paris of corresponding front and back vowels, and thus have comprised platal harmony in roots, but retain the distinction in suffixes.

Platal vowel harmony has been weakened in many languages of all three branches; in some cases (e.g., Uzbek), this is attributed to foreign (in the case of Uzbek, Iranian) influence.
 
Labial (rounding) harmony is a later development and differs in Turkic and Mongolian. In Turkic languages, a high vowel agrees in rounding with the vowel of the immediately preceeding syllable: thus, Turkish 'el-in' (hand- ablative) but 'koy-un) (village's). In the Mongolian languages, nonhigh vowels are unrounded, save when following a nonhigh rounded vowel in the immediately preceeding syllable, as in Khalkha 'ger-ees' (from the house) (house-ablative), otsogdr-oos(from yesterday).
 

Because a later development, some Turkic dialects have exceptions on this issue. Like Uighur 'gherdash' instead of old 'qardash'.



Edited by gok_toruk - 30-May-2006 at 03:54
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 04:04
Morphology:
 
The Altaic languages are agglutinative in word structure. This characteristic revelas that (1) words are formed by adding affixes, especially suffixes, to the root; (2) a relatively great number of such affixes  may be added, resulting in extreme cases in polysyllabic and polymorphic words of considerable length (although three to four morphemes per word is the usual limit); (3) each morpheme in a word has one distinct meaning or grammatical function; and (4) typically the phonological identity of each morpheme is preserved, with little or no modification of one word element by another. The Turkish 'in-dir-il-emi-y-ebil-ecek-ler' (it may be that they will not be able to be brought down) is analyzable as root word-causative-passive-impotential-potential-future-third person plural,
Mongolian 'eke-yin-iyen' (of one's own mother) as root word-genitive-case-reflexive-possessive. This agglutinative, exclusively suffixal morphology gives Altaic words a characteristically left-branching structure.
 
The morphology of the Altaic languages is simple, exhibiting little if any irregularity (e.g, Turkish has only one irregular verb, 'to be') or suppletion (as in English 'went' as the past form of 'go') and no distinct classes of noun or verb stems ("decleusions" and "conjugations") that require special sets of endings.
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 04:10

The noun and verb are highly inflected, but the adjective is not, and it does not agree with what it modifies. The noun has a plural affix, but numerals are used with the singular (e.g., two man), and the plural is unused where a general sense is intended: 'read books' may be rendered 'read book'.

The use of the plural second-person pronoun ('you') as a polite singular is general in Altaic languages. For the third person, Altaic languages use demonstrative pronouns; 'they' is literally 'these' or 'those'. The possessive forms of pronouns are widely used instead of definite articles.

There is no grammatical category of mood. Etymologically, almost all verbal forms have nominal origin.

Apart from finite verb forms, which serve as the main verbs of independent clauses, Altaic languages have participle or verbal nouns, which may act as nouns or adjectives, which may act as adverbs or complements to verbs or serve as the main verbs of subordinate clauses; and so-called imperative or vocative forms, which serve special functions and typically form clauses of very limited structural types.

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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 04:21
Syntax:
 
The syntax of the Altaic languages has been remarkably stable and resistant to foreign influence. These languages use propositions, which form phrases with the preceeding noun, rather than propositions, which form phrases with following noun. They have no articles as such; demonstrative adjectives ('this' and 'that', for example) or possessive pronouns ('its') are used for the definite articles, and the numeral 'one(s)' for the indefinite articles.
 
The basic word order is subject-object-verb (SOV); modifiers such as adjectives and adverbs generally preceed what they modify, while specifiers such as quantifying terms and axuiliary verbs follow the specified (thus 'book many'='many books'). As in morphology, syntactic structure is consequently characteristically, left-branching.
 
Altaic languages have no clauses as such, particularly constructions being used instead- e.g., Turkic 'yemek ke kelgen kishi'. Hypotactic (subordinate) constructions such as subordinate clauses are much preferred to paratactic (coordinate) ones such as independent clauses; the construction 'having gotton up, she left' is much more common than 'she got up and left'.
 
There is little or no transformation of basic structures. Word order is not inverted, for example in questions; rather these are formed either by use of a question particle (in questions inviting a yes-or-no answer) or by use of a question words, as in Turkic 'Sarsmas kim dir'? (who is Sarsmas?- literally 'Sarsmas who- is?'). Passives and causatives are marked by verb affixes and may be combined in passive-causative or causative-passive forms. Some variance is allowed in word order for purposes of emphasis or of flow of information in the discourse. Old, presupported material tends to preceed new, asserted material.
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 04:29
Vocabulary:
 
There are comparatively few exactly common words found in all three branches of Altaic languages. Some consonants have changed in different languages: old Turkic 'uike' (horn), Tungusic 'uihe', Manchu 'iige'. Consonants which are usually changed in three branches are Turkic 'q' to Tungus 'h', Mongolian 'k' to Turkic 'ch', Tungusic 'b' to Turkic 'm', etc. Parts of words like suffixes, anyhow, have remained stable. Note the possessive pronouns in Tungusic: murin-iw(horse-my). The original form is 'ib' which is changed to 'im' in Turkic. Tungusic: murin-iy (horse-your). Here, the nasal sound has been dropped off; in Turkic 'ing' instead of 'iy'. Tungusic: 'murin-in' (horse-his) which is equal to Turkic 'i'. Turkic 'da' is equal to Tungusic 'du'. They both also use 'la'. 
 
The lack of mastery of all three branches have resulted in very little printed word lists.


Edited by gok_toruk - 30-May-2006 at 04:38
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 04:36

Proposed refrences are:

Introduction to Altaic Linguistics, which outlines the history and structure of languages (including Korean) as well as the history of scholarship in Altaic linguistics- N.Poppe
 
Vergleichende Grammatik der altaischen Sprachen, Vol. 1, Vergleichende lautlehre, is a comprehensive comparative phonologyl
 
Einfu (BP)hrung in die altaische Sprachwissenschaft, 3 Vol., is a classic of comparative grammer, by G.J.Ramstedt.
 
Studies in Korean Etymology, by G.J. Ramstedt.
 
Japanese and the other Altaic languages, Roy Andrew Miller.
 
Modern Mongolian: A transformational syntax, by Robert I. Binnick.
 
Proffessor Robert I. Binnick ; Proffessor of Linguistics and East Asian Studies, University of Torento.
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 04:44
I didn't mean to ask for other resources. It'd be better if you could have given your personal opinion towards the questions raised in the original article. Now you ruined this thread to become a place for copy/pasting. Disappointed!!!!!!!!!!!
 
 
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 05:00
It's not a copy paste. Not all people act like you, remember. If you're willing to know more about this issue, so there are books I suggested. You could have asked me before guessing if that was a copy/paste or not.
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 05:05

These are just translations of my own research in my own language. And, listen, instead of just telling me Mongols live among Kiptchaks (it's Kazaks; not Kiptchaks) or just claiming Altaic theory is not fixed, give support to your opinion and give examples.

Those were my efforts to see what differs in these branches. Totally, I've found more similarity rather than distinctin. And it's not only me. If there were more people who think they theory is borken up than people who agree with it, it wouldn't have gained internationl acceptance.

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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 05:09
I'm sorry,  as what you have provided is not a comment for the original article, which is to be mistaken for c/p easily. Now please analyse the original article. Your linguistical knowledge really impressed me.
 
 
 
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 04:20
My dear 'qartash', barar, I don't know wethher you're just kidding me or not by saying 'your linguistical knowledge really impressed me', but I'll try to defend my point of view here; especially about the highlighted sections.
 
First, I should say, the most powerfully supporte issue is, as a matter of fact, morphological (form-related) materials.  If you study any of those famous books on Altaic theory (I really suggest; you can search for parts of them online too), you'll see how these are conneted orphologically. Also, I think my points should have given you such a point of view. 
 
And about 'similarities can change (especially in situations of intensive language contact'  I would say, let's consider the case about Turkic and Tungusic which is really hard to think they've had regular interaction. Consider the case that original Koreans were Tungusic people who migrated from Manchuria and Siberia. Even here, you can find a large variey of similarities, without any certain contact.
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 04:34
'grammatical gender', the earliest Mongolian text seems be 'The Secret History of Mongols'. Linguistical studies have shown contrary to what this article have mentioned. The thing is that Scholars use linguistical characteristics of 'The Secret History of Mongols' to prove Modern Khalkha Mongolian is quite influenced by Tungusic while the old one is very similar to Turkic in the case of structure.
 
'verbfinal word order'. I don't know if you've studies the original text (Secret History) in Mongolian, but even present-day Mongols themselves believe that 'The Secret History of Mongols' is based on a very old conversational dialect (not a formal literally language); most modern speakers don't understand it. So, if true, we should expect to see changes in the places of words; for example to start a sentence with a verb, rather than ending it. That's also observed in Turkic inscriptions. They used once, 'adirildim yigrimi uch yashimqa) instead of 'yigrimi uch yashimqa adirildim'.
 
 
 
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 04:43
'the hypothesis that a strong proto-Bolgharic influence on proto-Mongolian is responsible for most commonalities in the two language families'
s
We know that old Bulgharic words differed from Turkic in some consonants. In comparison, scholars believe Old Bulghar 'd' was Turkic 'L' or Bulghar 'k' was Turkic 'p'. For example, Turkic 'lap' should be Bulghar 'dak'; you see quite distinct. This is a, rather more complicated issue when compared to consonant shifts observed in Turkic and Mongolian or Turkic and Tungusic. So, if we consider a proto-Bulgharic influence on Mongolian, still changes should be seen in common words. Can't be accpeted, just beacuse of all those exactly similar words found in three branches.
 
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 05:06
'The borrowing hypothesis is further strengthened by the fact that the Altaic languages share few lexical items that belong to those semantic areas that are generally thought to be stable over time and least amenable to linguistic borrowing'.
 
First, I want to attract your attention to this point that archeological, lingistic and even legendary sources support the view that the Korean peninsula was settled by Tungusic-speaking people who migrated from Manchuria and Siberia. These people developed the Korean language. And, the fact is that Korean combware pottery (Neolithic period) is commonly found in northeastern Asia. This is also the same for Korean bronze daggers, belt hooks and knobbed mirrors (lake Baikal, Mongolian areas). It's not proved Korean to be Altaic, but it shows, to a high degree, similarities with Tungus. We know Turks distinguished Korean only in almost 550.
 
Anyhow, about those parts o language that remains stable over time, we can name affixes:
 
use of 'cha' or 'ja' is common in Turkic, Tungus and therefore Korean
like the word 'qaracha' in Turkic. The example could be Korean 'hakcha' (the person about 'hak') which means 'scholar' , or Korean 'uija'= chair.
Note these examples are grammatically same in Tungusic.
 
Use of 'in' in Turkic, Tungus, and Korean. See Turkic 'manglay in, yer ke dushtu' (he fell down in the forehead; in fact, it means almot "with"):
Korean 'ag-in' (with ak)=evil person.
 
in Tungus and Korean, 'ul' is used to make an object form, like 'kaps-ul'
That's the same as Turkic. 'Soq' is a verb and its object form is 'soqul'. 'Sat' is the verb, 'sat-il' is the object form.
 
Or use of 'la' in Turkic and Tungus and 'lo' in Korean.
Korean 'nal' (day)+lo= by the day. Turkic 'at'+la= by horse.
 
Use of 'om' in Tungus and Korean and 'am' or 'em, um, im' (these changes are to harmonize the word) to make nouns which are used instead of verbs:
Korean 'si(h)+om=test or 'sir(h)+om=experiment.
Turkic 'al'+am (or im)= (the process of) taking
Turkic 'kit'+im (or em)= (the process of) going
 
Tungus or Korean 'yo' or 'i(y)a' to mean 'it is' which is equal to Turkic 'o'.
Turkic 'qara o' (it is black).


Edited by gok_toruk - 01-Jun-2006 at 05:08
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 05:14

Koreans and Japanese people, by history, has nothing to do with Turkic or Mongolians (I mean culturally). But these are just SOME of the similarities we think to have originated from a mother language. Even about words, you can say Korean 'chin' which means 'truth; true' is exactly the same as Turkic. Or Japanese and Korean 'kan' which means offical is equal to Turkic and Mongolian 'qaan'; Japanese Murasaki (related to Mur) and Turkic 'Mor' (both mean purple), Japanese 'aji' which is exactly as Turkic word 'aji'. Old Turkic word 'tepe' is 'teppen' in Japanese, Japanese  'yama' is Turkic 'yamaq' or 'yama' and a lot of other words that can make us think about this issue again.

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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 05:17

That's about it for the time being. Take good car and just take it easy.

 
Kind regards,
Iltirish Yemreli
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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