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Topic ClosedGender equality and the problem with musl

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Gender equality and the problem with musl
    Posted: 13-May-2006 at 17:26

(First of all i don't disscusse here about islam, but also this is a disscussion about muslim women and their psychocology)

I made a topic befor with this title : May muslim woman have more than one husband? I wanted to disscuss the real reasons for why women are not as equal as men in islam, and i got very interesting replies and concerns. for example:

A child must be named and follow the father's surname.. not the mom's name.. and it's already being discussed so many times in AE about man leadership and rights in Islam. Only one man.. a father will lead the family.. not the mom.

I have heared many of this befor, but it is too sad to hear it from a woman. I have seen here in Germany many young muslim men who change their german girl friends weekly, but they don't allow their sisters even talk to a german boy, or if they want to marry, the wife must be a virgin!!. The odd thing is these opressed women even give these men right to do so. I have seen once in a talkshow about a muslim woman who was married to a muslim man. She was awar about her husband's past and all german girl friends he had. She said this was his right as man, but as a muslim girl she had to be virgin to marry him, and this is right so.

This is so sad that muslim women subordinate theirselves the men, many of them are awar of which rights they have in Germany, but they strictly prevent theirselves to appreciate their rights.

But what could we except from them , if the muslim men think like that:

Are women same as men physiologically and psychologically? Are their responsibilities in the societies and families the same?

If the answer is no, then how come they can be equal?

In Islam, it is stated very clearly that women are the clothes of men, as the same men are the clothes of women.  As men take more responsibilities for the families, then they should be a level higher in position. The reason is:

Their more responsibilites came from the structure of the society and men's physical and mental abilities, which somehow protects women from engaging in social struggle.  How come one can claim Islam favours men, while it's requiring more responsibilites from men?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2006 at 17:41
A potentially passionate topic, Maziar. I just want to remind everyone to conduct themselves according to the rules of this forum. This is a topic that can very easily be discussed respectfully and without unnecessary conflict.

I don't want to be especially harsh but I'm not going to accept anything that breaks the forum's rules, so here is how it's going to be:

If the debate contradicts any of the forum's rules, that post will be deleted (as will any posts asking why it was deleted or where it went - if it's bad enough to be deleted, you know why and where it went). If the same forumer does it again, I will report them and the mods will do whatever they decide to do. If this thread gets posts that break the rules from two or three people who do not appear to be working together to get it closed and silence the debate, the thread will be closed.

Enjoy!


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2006 at 18:12
 Thank you very much for your support I really want to disscusse respectfully with fellow members, and i agree 100% any unrespectfull post must be deleted, befor a flame war beginns.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 18:23

BOMBAY -- Hard-line Islamic clerics in a northern Indian village have declared that a woman's 10-year-old marriage was nullified when her father-in-law raped her -- and ordered the mother of five to marry the rapist.
    The fatwa, or religious edict, was issued by Darool Uloom Deoband, South Asia's most powerful Islamic theological school known for promoting a radical brand of Islam that is said to have inspired the Taliban in Afghanistan.
CLICK TO READ MORE

Could you imagine how disguesting it is to marry someone who has plagued you?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 18:24
Dear God.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 18:44
yes, there is a problem in terms of interpretation of Islam and the status of women BUT on the other hand i really don't like the generalization of 'muslim women'.  I think it is important to highlight the differences between societal, cultural and political conditions within what has been referred as 'muslim world'.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 19:06
True, Pegasusdi. You couldn't compare a Sarajevan woman with a Bihac woman, or a Tehran woman with a Bam woman, anymore than you could a Bihac woman with a Bam woman. There's a lot of differences between regions.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 20:11
Originally posted by Maziar

BOMBAY -- Hard-line Islamic clerics in a northern Indian village have declared that a woman's 10-year-old marriage was nullified when her father-in-law raped her -- and ordered the mother of five to marry the rapist.
    The fatwa, or religious edict, was issued by Darool Uloom Deoband, South Asia's most powerful Islamic theological school known for promoting a radical brand of Islam that is said to have inspired the Taliban in Afghanistan.
CLICK TO READ MORE

Could you imagine how disguesting it is to marry someone who has plagued you?

i dont know whats your agenda Maziar, but putting this "article"  in the way you put it shows biased anti-islamic opinion ( which is the theme of the western media these days), stereotyping and disguesting form of generalization.

its the first time i hear about this , a victim forced to marry her raper !! if you continued reading the artilce you will see that this "fatwa" has no bases

quotes from the same article.

the All India Muslim Women Personal Law Board decried it and asked Mrs. Ilahi and her husband not to separate.
    "
The fatwa goes against the light of Koran. No tenet of Koran can justify the injustice done to an innocent victim. Imrana should never be punished for no fault of hers. The victim has every right to continue with her marriage and live with her husband," said Shaista Amber, president of women's law board.
    "
The Islamic clerics have failed to differentiate between sex by consent and rape by force. The ruling was against the spirit and essence of Islam, which gives equal rights to women."
    Javed Akhtar, a noted Muslim poet, said: "
Islam teaches compassion, justice, equality and a fair deal for women. The fatwa, on the other hand, appears to treat women as mere commodities."

---------------------

and people already showed that the clerics who issued the fatwa seems to be in confusion of terms.( unless it was not a rape case to start with)

as the medical examinations showed no rape took place.

still, AFAIK even if she commeted adultry with her father in law that shouldn't be a reason to divorce her from her husband and marry her father in law.

they forgot that her childern are her father in law's grandchildern !.

funny how Western media claims to be just and unbiased and almost all they do in regard to Islam is nothing but biasing and stereotyping, from the "selling" topics of the news to the main body, and putting the "other opinions" in the last like the case here.


 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 20:14
Well it's obviously against the Koran, azimuth. At least, I knew so. I didn't realize there are people who don't? That's... hmmm... I don't want to break the forum rules myself. But that's not good and very irresponsible.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 22:17
Originally posted by Maziar

BOMBAY -- Hard-line Islamic clerics in a northern Indian village have declared that a woman's 10-year-old marriage was nullified when her father-in-law raped her -- and ordered the mother of five to marry the rapist.
    The fatwa, or religious edict, was issued by Darool Uloom Deoband, South Asia's most powerful Islamic theological school known for promoting a radical brand of Islam that is said to have inspired the Taliban in Afghanistan.
CLICK TO READ MORE

Could you imagine how disguesting it is to marry someone who has plagued you?

 

I wouldn't take anything that Indian Muslims do or say too seriously. Their "Islamic" faith has been corrupted by their Hindu ancestory and their presence in a largely Hindu country (India 's population is 80.5% Hindu and 13.4% Muslim).

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 22:38

@azimuth, as i said befor and i repeat it here this topic is not about Islam, but muslim women. To make  clear for you the difference, muslim women are the most opressed women around the world, and this is a fact. I am not trying to discusse about if Islam is good or not, but also i am trying to show how these women suffer. There could be hindu women or european women who suffer, but right now i am talking about muslim women. I hope you got my point now.

Azimuth you know very well how they suffer, so please don't tell me about western media, i don't care about them. I will here talk about women and their pain and i don't care about if someone like it or not.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 22:50
I am not oppressed, Maziar. I know of very few women who are actually oppressed because of religion and not because of authoritarian regimes cloaked in the veil of religion. This woman in India would be an example of the former, since India is not an authoritarian country. "Mormon" polygamist sects in the United States would be another example.

Rural women in patriarchial societies - including most of southern Europe (Portugal, Spain, the Balkans, etc.) are oppressed to a degree comparable to Islamic nations.

It may appear different on the surface, veils instead of aprons... but it's all the same. Opression is opression and it is never sanctioned by religion but only by men's implementations of it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 22:50
Originally posted by Maziar

@azimuth, as i said befor and i repeat it here this topic is not about Islam, but muslim women. To make  clear for you the difference, muslim women are the most opressed women around the world, and this is a fact. I am not trying to discusse about if Islam is good or not, but also i am trying to show how these women suffer. There could be hindu women or european women who suffer, but right now i am talking about muslim women. I hope you got my point now.

Azimuth you know very well how they suffer, so please don't tell me about western media, i don't care about them. I will here talk about women and their pain and i don't care about if someone like it or not.

 

Oh give me a freaking break! Muslim women are NOT the most oppressed women in the world. Hindu women suffer, Christian women suffer, Buddhist women suffer, athiest women suffer. Women are oppressed by men in all societies and it has always been this way. It is MEN and NOT Islam that oppresses women. Until the 20th Century, women were oppressed in America, as were Blacks and other minorities - are you going to blame that on Christianity?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 22:52

Originally posted by Mila

I am not oppressed, Maziar. I know of very few women who are actually oppressed because of religion and not because of authoritarian regimes cloaked in the veil of religion. This woman in India would be an example of the former, since India is not an authoritarian country. "Mormon" polygamist sects in the United States would be another example.

Rural women in patriarchial societies - including most of southern Europe (Portugal, Spain, the Balkans, etc.) are oppressed to a degree comparable to Islamic nations.

It may appear different on the surface, veils instead of aprons... but it's all the same. Opression is opression and it is never sanctioned by religion but only by men's implementations of it.

Mila jaan, don't you think it is hypocrital of Mazier to claim that Muslim women are oppressed when he/she has a picture of an Norwegian (Of Iranian descent) porn star in his/her avatar? ROFL

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 23:08
Maziar, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and try my best to keep this thread open. However, I will not tolerate a new thread everytime some abscure Imam in northern India does something (un)Islamic. I know you've not done that, I'm just letting you know.

Master_Blaster, I appreciate seeing a new member with whom I can obviously get along with but you've only made 4 posts and three of them caught my attention in a negative way. I suggest you read the rules and regulations of the forum here and try to calm down a little if you plan to stick around.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 23:57

Originally posted by Mila

I am not oppressed, Maziar. I know of very few women who are actually oppressed because of religion and not because of authoritarian regimes cloaked in the veil of religion. This woman in India would be an example of the former, since India is not an authoritarian country. "Mormon" polygamist sects in the United States would be another example.

Rural women in patriarchial societies - including most of southern Europe (Portugal, Spain, the Balkans, etc.) are oppressed to a degree comparable to Islamic nations.

It may appear different on the surface, veils instead of aprons... but it's all the same. Opression is opression and it is never sanctioned by religion but only by men's implementations of it.
I know you are not opressed Mila, in fact you are an open minded muslim woman, and that's why i like you and respect you. No i am talking about most opressed muslim women.

I see things are out of control here, what i didn't except and never intend. I will stop posting here if you wish, so you can close this thread.

But all in all i wish there could be a place to talk about opressed women, don't you think? you are a woman too.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2006 at 08:39
But Uttar Pradesh Chief Minister Mulayam Singh on June 29 supported the fatwa, saying: "The decision of the Muslim religious leaders in the Imrana case must have been taken after a lot of thought. ... The religious leaders are all very learned and they understand the Muslim community and its sentiments."

So this is acutally supported by the state government? bastards!

And it is indeed very justified to say that not only muslim clerics endorse such barbarity. Look what the bible says about this:
http://thebricktestament.com/the_law/rape/dt22_23a.html
If a woman is raped in a city she should be brought to dead for not having cried loud enough, and if she did cry loud enough and she and the rapist are caught by a third person she should marry the rapist.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2006 at 10:09

that Cheif Minister is not Muslim, and India in general try to keep  out of religiouse debates (at least governments of many states), so not to provoke the clerics . still this case is strange and its the first time i hear something like this.

----------

Maziar

you dont know what you want to discuss about, you say oppressed muslim women and you are generalizing, and you want to talk about this as in something only happens with muslim women and the rest of women in the world are living great because they are not muslims!

so basicly you are talking about religion but dont know how to say it.

women oppressed everywhere in the world in different levels and that Has nothing to do with religion, its mostly had to do with Women being the softer side of the community, the more emotional one and in general weaker physically which many men unjustfully take advantage of.

again that happen everywhere, in the US and in Saudi Arabia and in India and Australia ....etc.

unless you want to talk about specific matter like sex which seems like you are obbsessed about.

so FYI  as per Islam men are not supposed to have sexual relations outside marriage, and if they did its considered  adultery  and they have the same punishement as women who commet adultery.

so what you consider as Muslim men oppressing women, is basicly cultural thing to do with the Middle east and south asian culture, you find it with hindos and other non-islamic cultures.

---------

i found this video of British becomming muslims and there is a woman who is a jornalist and went undercover to Afganistane before the 2001 war.

note this is not from an islamic preaching site or anything, this is a Documentary made by BBC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc4myUoR6RQ

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2006 at 11:27
Azimuth for the last time i don't disscusse about Islam, i disscusse about women, and in this case about muslim women. Muslim women are only a groupe of women which i chose to talk about it, you understand? there is only a groupe of women which i call "muslim women". This has nothing to do with their faith. i wonder why is this so hard to understand.
 
Btw, if you don't like my posts so please don't read them.
I have tryed many times to make clear my point, and i hope this is the last time becouse i will simply ignore any statments like this.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2006 at 11:35
This thread is clearly turning into a negative experience for all involved. I will close it - but if you have anything related to the topic that you, Maziar, or any other forumers would like to add - just send me your post via PM.
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