Atheists/Agnostics/Pagans/Kaffirs are better human beings

Well, I hate to be preachy, so I won't be. I'll only say this:
Please guys, stop grouping the Qu'ran and the bible together. I recently began to read the bible and there is a huge difference in the quality of the writing and in the information contained.

EDIT: (the bible was the poorer I mean. And I don't mean information such as theology, I mean as in law and science and stuff)


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 24-May-2006 at 03:26

Would you care to prove that statement.
I think that both the Qu'ran and the Bibles moral codes would lead to a better life. Most in fact are accepted by all people even if they don't adhere to either faith.
The Qu'ran is completely consistant with our current level of scientific understanding as well.

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Would you care to prove that statement. I think that both the Qu'ran and the Bibles moral codes would lead to a better life. Most in fact are accepted by all people even if they don't adhere to either faith. The Qu'ran is completely consistant with our current level of scientific understanding as well.

Originally posted by Maziar Btw could you prove that Quran is God's word?

Yes I could. Would it make a difference but? I doubt it. People have generally already made up their minds on religion and don't change it under any evidence.

Originally posted by Babarossa Oh come on, the Bible teaches hardly any morals. "Do not kill, but you can kill pagans" "Kill all nonbelievers" "You are God's chosen people" "All non-Christians will go to an eternal punishment". All of these are by no means moral.

I don't like picking on other religions but you may have a point. I have recently met some fundamentalist Chrisitians who told me that they believe that being good or bad is irrelevent its believing Jesus got nailed to a cross that'll get you to heaven.

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Originally posted by Maziar Btw could you prove that Quran is God's word? Yes I could. Would it make a difference but? I doubt it. People have generally already made up their minds on religion and don't change it under any evidence. Originally posted by Babarossa Oh come on, the Bible teaches hardly any morals. "Do not kill, but you can kill pagans" "Kill all nonbelievers" "You are God's chosen people" "All non-Christians will go to an eternal punishment". All of these are by no means moral. I don't like picking on other religions but you may have a point. I have recently met some fundamentalist Chrisitians who told me that they believe that being good or bad is irrelevent its believing Jesus got nailed to a cross that'll get you to heaven.

Yes, many fundamentalist Christians will say things similar to that.

Originally posted by Northman Originally posted by Babarossa Oh come on, the Bible teaches hardly any morals. "Do not kill, but you can kill pagans" "Kill all nonbelievers" "You are God's chosen people" "All non-Christians will go to an eternal punishment". All of these are by no means moral.   Originally posted by Omar al Hashim I don't like picking on other religions but you may have a point. I have recently met some fundamentalist Chrisitians who told me that they believe that being good or bad is irrelevent its believing Jesus got nailed to a cross that'll get you to heaven.   ....  so much for me not making a stance   Yes Babarossa - you are almost right, if you ignore the Christian part of the bible, the NT, and you really shouldnt ignore it when you refer to Christianity. The OT has only very little consequence to Christian behavior.   On a second note... May I compliment you for excellent posts - together with Dampier, you're doing the young group of AE great honour.   You are not picking Omar - but those guys left you out in the field with only half a truth.   Its not OK to sin as a Christian - to disobey the teachings of Christ (NT). But as Christian, you CAN be forgiven - if more criteria is met - and the most important (but not only) of these criteria, is to believe that Christ died on the cross to take all sins upon him - to make it possible for Christians to be forgiven - releaved from sin.   You can lecture them next time about this on my behalf

I was strictly talking out of the Old Testament. The Old and New Testaments clearly contradict each other. I was raised a Catholic, and had to learn about the Bible to get confirmed (I am now an agnostic), I remember some of the dumbest things being said. That it was just for an athiest who saved hundreds of lives to go to hell but for a horrible Christian who tortured little children his whole life and repented two seconds before his death to go to heaven.
I can't say that all non-religious are better people, but it seems that non-religious are nicer. The Muslims have the extremists, same as the Christians. However, you will rarely see an athiest that takes thousands of dollars from old people, or who goes and suicide bombs a building, killing a hundred people.

Originally posted by Northman What is the difference between discussing and and arguing? (I prefer to discuss - or rather - refuse to argue)

I think its how loud your talking or perhaps if you actually listen to the other person.

In questions of "faith" - can things be "proved"?

I think so, at least as well as some proofs for mathematical theorms I've done

Omar, I not so fortunate to own the Qu'ran, so I would appreciate a few quotes from it, in respect to "consistant with our current level of scientific understanding". Could you do this please? Or if you prefer to elaborate instead - that would be fine too.

This is a good essay on the topic:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/scislam.html

You are not picking Omar - but those guys left you out in the field with only half a truth.   Its not OK to sin as a Christian - to disobey the teachings of Christ (NT). But as Christian, you CAN be forgiven - if more criteria is met - and the most important (but not only) of these criteria, is to believe that Christ died on the cross to take all sins upon him - to make it possible for Christians to be forgiven - releaved from sin.   You can lecture them next time about this on my behalf Big smile

Ah, Ok. This was my previous understanding before I talked to these guys.

Originally posted by Barbarrossa I remember some of the dumbest things being said. That it was just for an athiest who saved hundreds of lives to go to hell but for a horrible Christian who tortured little children his whole life and repented two seconds before his death to go to heaven.

Totally agree.

I can't say that all non-religious are better people, but it seems that non-religious are nicer.The Muslims have the extremists, same as the Christians.

This is entirely dependent on who you know. Better to say every group has its extremist (including atheists) and they are not nice. To condemn billions of people as 'not nice' I'm sure is not what you meant.

However, you will rarely see an athiest that takes thousands of dollars from old people,

Like Kerry Packer for example. Although millions would be a better number.

Originally posted by Gargoyle You see, Religions have nothing to do with reality. They have invented their own reality. Look closely and you will see they're set up like Pyramid Schemes. They direct their clever Marketing towards the Ignorant.

Ah well then, Islam is not a religion.
 

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Originally posted by Northman What is the difference between discussing and and arguing? (I prefer to discuss - or rather - refuse to argue) I think its how loud your talking or perhaps if you actually listen to the other person. In questions of "faith" - can things be "proved"? I think so, at least as well as some proofs for mathematical theorms I've done Omar, I not so fortunate to own the Qu'ran, so I would appreciate a few quotes from it, in respect to "consistant with our current level of scientific understanding". Could you do this please? Or if you prefer to elaborate instead - that would be fine too. This is a good essay on the topic: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/scislam.html You are not picking Omar - but those guys left you out in the field with only half a truth.   Its not OK to sin as a Christian - to disobey the teachings of Christ (NT). But as Christian, you CAN be forgiven - if more criteria is met - and the most important (but not only) of these criteria, is to believe that Christ died on the cross to take all sins upon him - to make it possible for Christians to be forgiven - releaved from sin.   You can lecture them next time about this on my behalf Big smile Ah, Ok. This was my previous understanding before I talked to these guys. Originally posted by Barbarrossa I remember some of the dumbest things being said. That it was just for an athiest who saved hundreds of lives to go to hell but for a horrible Christian who tortured little children his whole life and repented two seconds before his death to go to heaven. Totally agree. I can't say that all non-religious are better people, but it seems that non-religious are nicer.The Muslims have the extremists, same as the Christians. This is entirely dependent on who you know. Better to say every group has its extremist (including atheists) and they are not nice. To condemn billions of people as 'not nice' I'm sure is not what you meant. However, you will rarely see an athiest that takes thousands of dollars from old people, Like Kerry Packer for example. Although millions would be a better number. Originally posted by Gargoyle You see, Religions have nothing to do with reality. They have invented their own reality. Look closely and you will see they're set up like Pyramid Schemes. They direct their clever Marketing towards the Ignorant. Ah well then, Islam is not a religion.

"This is entirely dependent on who you know. Better to say every group has its extremist (including atheists) and they are not nice. To condemn billions of people as 'not nice' I'm sure is not what you meant."

What I meant to put was extremists. However, some things are in a religions scriptures that are not followed.

"Like Kerry Packer for example. Although millions would be a better number."

Well, what I mean is, the ratio of televangelist to athiest stealing money is nowhere close to the ratio of athiest to Christian.

Televangelists are evangelists on television. Hence, television + evangelist = televangelist.