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Atheists/Agnostics/Pagans/Kaffirs are better human beings

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Emperor Barbarossa View Drop Down
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  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Atheists/Agnostics/Pagans/Kaffirs are better human beings
    Posted: 13-May-2006 at 22:21
I agree with you Tobodai. It is not up to somebody to disprove somebody. The society we live in is founded on the basis of unproven until proven. Religion teaches the exact opposite, that something is always proven, and those who do not believe in what the religion teaches are evil people that will be punished for their "ignorance".

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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2006 at 22:56

Addressed to Kalevipoeg:

As you have yet to address my response to your initial post, in which some of your premises were stated, I will respond to your most recent post, in which you make a disingenuous, bigoted, blanket generalization of an entire faith based upon your limited understanding of the premises of that faith.

So you compare Christianity to the Nazi movement? This ignorant, bigoted comparison deserves no formal refutation, but, as I do not feel like letting you make it anymore, I will give one.

First as to premises. The Nazis operated from a premise of ethnic hatred and ethnic superiority. Christians believe in freedom of choice; we are allowed to freely choose God. Thus our status as saved or condemned has absolutely nothing to do with an inherent ethnic state, but with our choices. Second, you are confusing "wrong" with condemned. An incomprehensible God requires an incomprehensible system of judgment; humans, aside from revelatory truth, cannot state who is saved and who is condemned. Third, we are saved precisely because of the fundamental loving nature of God, which outshines both human judgment, and the consequences of the fall. The Nazis believed in inherent racial superiority, which could not be influenced by human choice. Christians believe in the acceptance of Gods word as a prerequisite for union with God. If you cant discern the difference between a choice freely made and an inherent state then I suggest you go back to the books (both the logical and the theological).

Now that we have dismissed your identification of Christians with the Nazi movement, I feel the need to disabuse you of your absolute truth. You posit that Nazism is a more humanitarian ideology than Christianity because the victims of Nazism dont end up being infinitely tortured. I would answer you thus:

1) You assume that all Christians would jump to defend the Crusades, witch hunts, etc., which displays a fundamental lack of understanding toward the Christian faith. In doing thus you misidentify Christianity with its misinterpreters. In essence, you might as well identify all atheists with Stalin.

2) As stated above, you confuse being "wrong" with being condemned to eternal torment.

3) Your assertion requires the acceptance of certain Christian premises (the existence of Hell, etc.) which you, yourself, refuse to accept. If Hell is not a reality, then why are Christians inherently less moral? Alebeit they may believe this, but in your absolute realm of Kaleviologic, isn't it impossible to pronounce moral judgment based upon the premises of an inherently "stupid" system?

4) You see only the bad in others. I would challenge you to look at your own evils before seeking them in thos with whom you disagree. It can sometimes be trying, but is a lot more profitable than making wild generalizations about others stemming from a deep-seated desire to feel intellectually superior to them in your absence of underlying truth.

I feel the need to mention that your mention of human suffering is a legitimate theological issue, which I would be willing to discuss with you if you stop making this ridiculous, bigoted, and indefensible allegations about faith.

By the way, the intellectual aspects of Christianity have already been discussed. Feel free to respond to my first critique of your bigotry anytime. Ive been looking forward to it for a while now.

-Akolouthos



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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2006 at 23:01

Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa

I agree with you Tobodai. It is not up to somebody to disprove somebody. The society we live in is founded on the basis of unproven until proven. Religion teaches the exact opposite, that something is always proven, and those who do not believe in what the religion teaches are evil people that will be punished for their "ignorance".

But what system of beliefs--for it must always be a system of beliefs--is it that we use to determine what is proven? Many would posit that Christianity is proven through revelation (although few would posit, and those incorrectly, that it could be scientifically proven, as we discussed before).

It really comes down to what system of beliefs you decide to believe in. Most of them have been validated by others according to different systems of justification.

Therefore, it is as much up to an atheist to prove that God doesn't exist as it is up to a "religious person" to prove that God does exist--atheism, itself being a system of belief.

I grant you that this only gets us back to square one which, unfortunately, is relativism. This is where faith kicks in.

-Akolouthos

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  Quote Loknar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2006 at 23:39

Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa

Loknar, what denomination of Christianity do you belong to (if any)?

 

None...I believe in God 100%, I just am not a religious person.

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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 06:26
Gloves off, eh?

Originally posted by Akolouthos

I was actually referring to the point by point post on the first page, but this will do as well.

Originally posted by Kalevipoeg

The experiment has lasted for millenias and millenias, we are still the same as we ever were, dieing, raping, murdering, mutilating, molesting children, committing genocide. You could actually say that genocide is a pretty new thing on large scale so we are deteriorating. God could just pull the plug if he/it had any mercy. When you look at life past the white picket fence where being a christian is a very, very comfortable habit, you'll see that redemption is going further and further on extreme levels.

And when you create a universe you may govern it as you will.

Seriously though, you do raise some very important issues. Why doesn't God always intervene on behalf of the oppressed? Part of it is as a consequence of the fall and the continuing disobedience of man--insofar as that is the cause of suffering, etc. Part of it is simply incomprehensible, for God Himself is incomprehensible.

An early Church Father once asked an Angel why some were wealthy, some poor, some strong, others weak. The angel replied that the answers the monk sought belonged to the incomprehensible ways of God, and that it was not to the monks profit to learn of them. I realize this seems unsatisfactory to the uninitiated, but I think it may give you some idea how we Christians can make it through a day without killing ourselves.

Originally posted by Kalevipoeg

I don't know about you, but God made me this way, i can't change my way of being or thoughts. I can't ruin Gods work.

I think you should probably read the rest of the post you cited and the post I wrote in response to your initial assertions. Part of your creation was the gift of free-will, which you apply every day. I do take your point though (or at least I hope it was your point): When misinterpreted, the Christian doctrine of free-will can lead to fatalism and a shirking of responsibility.

Originally posted by Kalevipoeg

The official Bible is a piece of literature of parts which were selected by random people after Jesus' death and from which many parts were left out because these apostels were prejudiced to some writings.

You actually seem to have a more tolerant view toward the canon than many atheists I have encountered. Most believe that it was a simple set of political goals that inspired the formation of the Canon.

The true basis for the Canon lies in Christ's promise of the Holy Spirit, which was to lead the Church into truth in all things.

Originally posted by Kalevipoeg

So the lottery might be that only about ten people end up in heaven. Gods ways are mysterious.

Aptly put. A sobering thought, is it not? Still, we know for sure that Enoch and Elijah are there...and there were twelve apostles.

-Akolouthos



Incomprehensible eh? Well i believe that i am a member of the Asphaltarian Chrisitanity, a branch that believes that God speaks to you out of all the asphalt cracks there are across the Globe. I am so incomprohensible that i am actually God, i can say what i want, you'll never understand me.
And this is what i hate about incomprohensibility, maybe Hitler was incomprohensible to the Jews, maybe Stalin was also so to the Batlics. This "rule" can go so far there is no end.

Chrisitian free-will. Why do i then see people praying to God asking him why he sent upon me these sufferings or how could such a miracle have happened to me? Is that all fake faith and whining as man only has his free-will?

Enoch and Elijah and the 12 apostels in Heaven? You don't know anything, you can only believe that the one prejudiced book that speaks of magic is right.
There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...
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  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 08:17
Originally posted by Loknar

Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa

Loknar, what denomination of Christianity do you belong to (if any)?

 

None...I believe in God 100%, I just am not a religious person.


Yeah, I kind of thought you belonged to none when you said you did not believe in hell. So, is your church's name the Loknarian Church?

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  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 08:21
Originally posted by Akolouthos

Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa

I agree with you Tobodai. It is not up to somebody to disprove somebody. The society we live in is founded on the basis of unproven until proven. Religion teaches the exact opposite, that something is always proven, and those who do not believe in what the religion teaches are evil people that will be punished for their "ignorance".

But what system of beliefs--for it must always be a system of beliefs--is it that we use to determine what is proven? Many would posit that Christianity is proven through revelation (although few would posit, and those incorrectly, that it could be scientifically proven, as we discussed before).

It really comes down to what system of beliefs you decide to believe in. Most of them have been validated by others according to different systems of justification.

Therefore, it is as much up to an atheist to prove that God doesn't exist as it is up to a "religious person" to prove that God does exist--atheism, itself being a system of belief.

I grant you that this only gets us back to square one which, unfortunately, is relativism. This is where faith kicks in.

-Akolouthos


At least you admit that religion is not sceientific. Sherzod, however, believes that everything he says is true, and we are all wrong.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 09:32
Originally posted by Sherzod

So in other words you should not believe in what makes most sense, but you have to believe in the religion with the worst hell?

I havent said that, but bearing in mind and taking seriously the existance of heaven and hell is one of the most important concepts upon which Islam builds up!  

After all there are dozens of religions that claim you'll go to hell if you don't believe in that.
I am not talking about other dozens of..... I am talking about Islam, the only religion Allah has permitted!!!!

Most other religions say exactly the same thing. How can one determin which religion is right then?

Really, all this makes no sense. You say "it's wise to believe in Islam, because if you don't you will go to hell." Christians may say "it's wise to believe in Christianty, because if you don't you will go to hell." There's no way in determining which one is right.

good point! If whatever God you think exists is all-powerful, he can all concince us his religion is correct within an the blink of an eye.

So you want Allah himself to make you atheists believe in him, simply that easily? Just think upon your own comments, maybe you'll discover your stupid logic! Just a tip: Allah is not a cheater like you!!!

I'm not a cheater thank you. You're avoiding my argument. If a God is really omnipotent and omnibenevolent, he would surely have made all of mankind believe in him. Since not all people are of the same religion, he clearly didn't which means that:

1.) either he didn't want everybody to believe in him, sending the people who didn't believe in him to hell. In other words: it's God's own fault if people are condemned to hell, because he didn't made them believe in him. If this is the case he's clearly not omnibenevolent.
2.) or he isn't able to make everybody believe in him. In this case he's not omnipotent.
So whatever way you turn it, if God indeed does exist it's his own fault that I don't believe in him

As for atheists/religious people being good/evil. I remember a quote, don't remember who said it but I agree with it very much: "Without religion you'd have good people do good things and and evil people do evil things. But to have good people to do do evil things, that requires religion"

with the same success this meaningless quote could have been said: "But, to have evil people to do the good things, that requires religion" - this version is more viable in every aspect. Anyway, I don't like these stupid quotes, cause they are said by mortal beings - people (atheists to be correct). and, comparing the teachings from the Holy Book of Allah and these meaningless quotes - just makes your(atheists) lifes easier, cause you are all egoists.

I don't think religion can make evil people do good things (for argument's sake lets assume that there indeed are good and evil people). Good people exist all over the world, Christians, muslims, athests, agnostics, Hindus etc. I think it can easily be proven empirically that there is not one religion of which the adherents tend to be better. On the other hand I find it hard to believe that all crusaders, inquisitioners, suicide terrorists and other religious madmen are evil people. Surely many of them are potentially good people, but they are so brainwashed by their religion they're doing the most evil things, believing what they do is good.


I always find it strange that religious people attribute good deeds done by other religious people to religion, but if you point them at religious people doing evil things they say religion had nothing to do with that and attribute it to the evildoers being "just human".

hmm... I have found another synonymous word for egoists...

I'm guessing you mean atheists with that. Could you please explain?

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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 10:51

Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa

At least you admit that religion is not sceientific. Sherzod, however, believes that everything he says is true, and we are all wrong.

And he also believes that we will and should burn in hell.

That's the difference between talking to a religious person who is smart and one who is not.  

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  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 11:12
Yes, I am friends with some smart religious people who never bring up the "fact" that I burn in hell.

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  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 11:55

Allah, the merciful. Quran: the ultimate source of information. Really?!

  • why can't I drink wine/palinka?
  • why can't I eat pig?
  • why can I have several wives and a women can't have several husbands?
  • who is this prophet of Islam?

*I saw that when reffering to Mohamed some of our forumers write something like "(SAW)". Since I don't know what that's suppose to mean I'll think of Jesus as "CHAINSAW". And Buddha is a "screwdriver". 

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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 12:47

Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa

Yes, I am friends with some smart religious people who never bring up the "fact" that I burn in hell.

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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 13:02

 

      Would a nonreligious person go to a neighbors home, at 10 am on Sunday, dressed, suit and tie, [knowing full well the neighbor will still be in jammies and robe] and attempt to convert that neighbor to his nonreligious beliefs?

        I ask this because, at 10:00, mothers day morning I had 2 Jehovah's witnesses at my door, briefcases in hand, trying to get in to "save"me.  What right does anyone have to do something like that, uninvited.  I was, holding to my own beliefs, polite, courteous but firm in my refusal of their unwanted "spiritual heroics"  

         I view these intrusions as tests of my own beliefs, as what I really wanted to say was, take your damn religious tracts and stick them in your A: drive.  I triumphed, I was still smiling as they grudgingly started for their next victim.

"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 13:49

It's true. There are no "atheist" missionaries. (By the same token, there are no "atheist" terrorists either.)

Some AE forumers here (I won't name names) persistently ask the question of why we (atheists, non-believers, non-religious people, etc.) can't just "leave believers/worshippers/religious people alone." I find that question absolutely ridiculous. I am pretty sure it's the experience of all of us who do not want to have anything to do with religion that it's our rights and desire to be "left alone" being violated constantly on a daily basis. (Red Clay's experience is a very good example of this kind of violation. ) But since society is so numb to all that religious crap, every time when we raise our feeble voice just a little (e.g. protesting against the mixing of religion with state), it becomes such a big deal.

This is particularly the case in the United States. One may be able to see a woman elected to the American presidency in 10 years, a Black person maybe in 20, a gay person maybe in 50, but an atheist? You may as well forget about it. That's how oppressed atheists are in the United States.

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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 14:00

Originally posted by Kalevipoeg

Incomprehensible eh? Well i believe that i am a
member of the Asphaltarian Chrisitanity, a branch that believes that God
speaks to you out of all the asphalt cracks there are across the Globe. I
am so incomprohensible that i am actually God, i can say what i want,
you'll never understand me.And this is what i hate about
incomprohensibility, maybe Hitler was incomprohensible to the Jews,
maybe Stalin was also so to the Batlics. This "rule" can go so far there is
no end.Chrisitian free-will. Why do i then see people praying to God
asking him why he sent upon me these sufferings or how could such a
miracle have happened to me? Is that all fake faith and whining as man
only has his free-will?Enoch and Elijah and the 12 apostels in Heaven?
You don't know anything, you can only believe that the one prejudiced
book that speaks of magic is right.


I'm not entirely sure the best way to fruitfully continue this discussion
is to sit here discussing your preposterous, ill-constructed analogies, but
it does give us both something to do.


So I think the point you are attempting to make is one that is worth
discussing (i.e. All things that are unproven are equally valid).


A Refutation of theAsphaltarian Heretics /P]

Whence have the Asphaltarians this doctrine? Which synod sanctioned
it? Show me from what source they derive thisheresy and where it is
written?
(Well it's what Joseph would have said had he been
confronting the Asphaltarians)


Seriously though, where did it come from? Christian theology, as it
exists today, is the product of two-thousand years of intellectual
discussion. The brightest minds of classical antiquity (Origen, Basil the
Great, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory the Theologian, Athanasius, Cyril of
Alexandria, etc.) entered into the Trinitarian and Christological debates in
the context of Scripture.


You might not accept the premises of the faith, but don't for a moment
think that it is devoid of intellectual engagement. Once again this goes
back to Christ's promise of the Holy Spirit to the Church, which was
expressed at the Ecumenical Councils. By the way, if you doubt the
intellectual credentials of the above mentionedtheologians, I challenge
you to read some of their writings.


Once again, it's all about the acceptance of certain premises. Say it with
me: premises, premises, premises. Thus, while all things that aren't
scientifically proved may be equally invalid scientifically--or logically if
you prefer--not every unproven system is equally validated. Not
even every Christian system is equally validated.


Thus, while the principle--or premise--of incomprehensibility does
indeed apply ad infinitum, it cannot be used tovalidate certain
incorrect systems of belief unless it is taken out of context; in essence,
though you can misinterpret it to say just about whatever you
want--as you indeed have, in this instance--this only serves to show the
futility of understanding even a small part of it outside of the context in
which it is meant to be understood.



As for the doctrine of free-will/P]

Once again, I believe you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the
doctrine of free-will. It does not mean that we will not be presented with
hardship. We are, however, given the ability to freely choose how we
will respond to these hardships.


The same holds for the requirements of the faith. We are given rules
and guidlines which we are free to ignore at our peril.


I am thinking of starting a thread laying out the basic premises of the
Christian doctrine of free-will for discussion, and would welcome you to
share. First, however, I have to do a bit of research.



As for your parting comment/P]

Though I disagree with your characterization of the Bible , your
point would hold true if held in the proper context. We have to trust in
what we view as revealed truth, and we can be empirically sure of very
little as regards the faith. As has been said and repeated in this thread, it
cannot be scientifically proven; it inevitably all comes back to faith and
experiential knowledge.


-Akolouthos



Edited by Akolouthos
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  Quote Loknar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 14:15

Originally posted by flyingzone

But since society is so numb to all that religious crap, every time when we raise our feeble voice just a little (e.g. protesting against the mixing of religion with state), it becomes such a big deal.

Really? Like where, in the south? Where I live people arent gung ho about religion...yes believe it or not America has places like that! Just look in any college class room.

This is particularly the case in the United States. One may be able to see a woman elected to the American presidency in 10 years, a Black person maybe in 20

You have it backwards here. An African American has a damn good shot at the presidency. There are many black leaders who command the respect of our population. Women wont be elected to such a high position for 20 years Id say.

a gay person maybe in 50, but an atheist? You may as well forget about it. That's how oppressed atheists are in the United States.

Oh boohoo cry me a river.

Meanwhile you atheists sit back and talk down at us 'worshippers' and our "religious crap". I could careless flyingzone.

Now what? "Atheist rights" crap? Now let me guess, you will do with the homosexuals did and hijack the civil rights struggle of the 60s.

Democracy = tyranny of the majority. No society can get around this. Can I as a far right wing gun slinging man get elected in Canada? Something tells me you'd say no. You damn oppressor (and all your atheist crapits everywherenow im oppressed)! There are opposites to all this flying zone, so dont act so naive. If your Athiest crap was everywhere and I was in a religious minority, I would never be elected and I would subject to your tyranny.

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  Quote Pieinsky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 15:02

I come from a country that was not long ago deeply religious. It anit shallow now though. As an atheist I feel constantly persecuted against. I have to take a religious class daily during school week.

 The Catholic Church can be very clever some times. One reason why women are not allowed to be priests in Catholicism is because the catholic church has realised that by denying that supposed privilege the schools will feel guilty or have an excuse to open up tons of positions for women to teach religion in secondary schools hence attempting to  braindirt a generation of people within the nation. As for primire schools' their despicable you wouldnt have to turn a around within them to see a religious icon.

There's a girl in my class who handed me a pamphlet depicting a character who was too lazy to become religious. And in the end he burned in hell. This was a terrible interpretation of the stimulus of atheism. And I was surprised this girl handed me the pamphlet with the whole hell thing on it, the thing is she was worried about me and really did believe I would go to hell if I continued my atheist ways.

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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 15:28
Originally posted by Loknar

Now what? "Atheist rights" crap? Now let me guess, you will do with the homosexuals did and hijack the civil rights struggle of the 60s.

I noticed that you have a special liking for responding to my posts, especially those that I consider boring and not to those that are begging for attention (e.g. I am most interested in knowing what's your opinion on "behavioral economics" or the purpose of "doing" history). In any case, I still feel flattered.

There is no political movement called "Atheist rights" as far as I know. Who mentioned that and where and when? Loknar you seem to have a talent in putting words in people's mouths ...

And what exactly do you mean by homosexuals "hijacking" the Civil Rights struggle in the 60's??? The Civil Rights Movement drew all the strengths it needed from all the oppressed groups - ethnic minority, women, gay and lesbian people. Your perception of homosexuals "hijacking" the Civil Rights Movement probably stems from your homophobic interpretation of history.

Originally posted by Loknar

Can I as a far right wing gun slinging man get elected in Canada? Something tells me you'd say no.

Would someone like that get elected in the United States too? For as much as I despise George W., I wouldn't call him a "far right wing gun slinging man". If indeed a person like that (or like you???) got elected to the presidency in the United States or anyway, everyone should be concerned, not just me. Most people would call that fascism, you know.

Originally posted by Loknar

If your Athiest crap was everywhere and I was in a religious minority, I would never be elected and I would subject to your tyranny.

True. But you would still have a right to voice your concerns and this is exactly what I am doing now. So what's your problem? You want to shut me up??? Is that part of your "right-wing gun slinging nature" or your "religious nature" (or an intriguing mixture of both)?



Edited by flyingzone
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  Quote Pieinsky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 15:50

Seriously though, where did it come from? Christian theology, as it exists today, is the product of two-thousand years of intellectual discussion. The brightest minds of classical antiquity (Origen, Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory the Theologian, Athanasius, Cyril of Alexandria, etc.) entered into the Trinitarian and Christological debates in the context of Scripture.

I wrote in a previous post on this topic why Religion cannot be truly morale or inspire intellectual thinking amongst even half of its members otherwise it would fragment and self-destruct. Please read this post, it is the first post I wrote on this topic. Its on page 1.



Edited by Pieinsky
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 16:30
Originally posted by Loknar

Now what? "Atheist rights" crap? Now let me guess, you will do with the homosexuals did and hijack the civil rights struggle of the 60s.

???
Claiming civil rights is fine, exept for people who don't have theirs respected?

What sense does that make?
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