Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

A new nation emerging

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Northman View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar

Suspended

Joined: 30-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4262
  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: A new nation emerging
    Posted: 06-May-2006 at 21:29

In many threads on AE, members discuss which empire did what to whom - who was right - who did wrong etc.
All this shows that true history like true beauty, can only be found in the eye of the beholder. Its a point of view - and every historywriter through the ages have his own version.
So we cannot always agree on history!
But can we learn so much from history, that we can envision a brand new global nation - no more wars between nations - we can only have one.
Lets try to look forward....

How would you envision such a global nation - what would we need - what should be excluded.
What kind of politics?(if any) - democracy? - religion?(if any) - secular/non-secular? - plus everything that will make a new nation the way YOU want it? 

Back to Top
Genghis View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2656
  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2006 at 22:27
Well, I think if there was an effective "world government" it would have to evolve from one national government overtaking all other world governments.  It could not be democratic, as so many different cultures and groups could not possibly get along, and each would rightfully feel that their problems were not being addressed by this world government.  The core of this world nation could be democratic, but the peripheral provinces could not be run the same way.  I think humans as we exist now are too variegated and heterogenous to work within a system to achieve goals.  The only way they could find themselves in such a situation is if one nation forced all others into it's own self-fashioned system and forced them to be loyal to it.
Member of IAEA
Back to Top
Tobodai View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Antarctica
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4310
  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2006 at 23:27
In order to get rid of war you would have to have a war that would crush all opposition to a world government.  You would need a Shi Hunag Ti like figure to ruthlessly impose a world government then go about ruthlessly imposing a new set of worldwide standards.
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
Back to Top
pegasusdi View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 03-May-2006
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote pegasusdi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2006 at 04:04
well then, accordingt o what's offered so far, we end up with
a- oligarchy of bureaucrats within a colonial structure (center-periphery)
b-dictatorship
and none of them seems attractive to me
imagination sets us free to be what we want to be
Back to Top
Northman View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar

Suspended

Joined: 30-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4262
  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2006 at 04:18

Originally posted by pegasusdi

well then, accordingt o what's offered so far, we end up with
a- oligarchy of bureaucrats within a colonial structure (center-periphery)
b-dictatorship
and none of them seems attractive to me

I agree - but what would seem attractive to you then? 
A worldwide USA? - EU evolving into a single nation? - or Iran expanding to take control? - China? 

Back to Top
pegasusdi View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 03-May-2006
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote pegasusdi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2006 at 04:45
hmm, the idea of a global nation  does not seem attractive to me as a whole. It is linked to too much power, too much homogenization in my mind (maybe because of the science-fiction books i have read
But if we are to discuss irrespective of reality or problems of governance and organization, then we are to talk about utopias.  Then, it may be interesting to try to imagine a world where there is one nation (which means that nation=humanity, so there is no nation by definition) and multiple states.  But, it would still be problematic since states don't always need nations to find a reason to  fight (as the history shows)
So i am afraid i don't see any attractive models.
imagination sets us free to be what we want to be
Back to Top
Spartakus View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
terörist

Joined: 22-Nov-2004
Location: Greece/Hellas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4489
  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2006 at 07:38

I cannot envision a global nation.

"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
Back to Top
Northman View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar

Suspended

Joined: 30-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4262
  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2006 at 16:07

You all seem to think such a "nation" impossible.
Let me ask...
If you had asked anyone 100 - or even 60 years ago if they could envision EU as we know it today - what would they have said?

You dont have to be a fan of EU to realize that 1000 years of "Battlefield Europe" probably is an era of the past due to EU. Who can imagine a war between 2 members of EU today?
EU is not one nation, but an alliance of nations - whats the big difference?
USA is another example of States who chosed to live peacefully together after after a devastating civil war. 
Each state has its own set of laws for local regulations - and the nation another set - pretty much like EU, but USA is one nation.
Today, the West-European countries and USA have other ties - NATO is one of them and counted as one force. There are more treaties, and I would be very surprised if common laws and agreements wouldnt increase. Invironmental regulations are close to "global laws". 
I strongly belive, that common people of all nations would like to live in peace and prosperety - so why dont we have that situation today all over the globe?
Numerous reasons, yes - so now we are back to my first post - what would it take to make one "nation" - or if you prefer. global peace.

Back to Top
pegasusdi View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 03-May-2006
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote pegasusdi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2006 at 16:28
Global peace is a nice phrase, easy to use, especially in a beauty contest 

I  am still a  little bit skeptical about it.  NATO is a tricky issue since it was designed for a bi-polar world, very much based on US policies.  For EU, i think its future has not been decided properly yet by its members and there are also some nationalist circles gaining power in Western Europe.  The history of USA is another story because the states themselves had not created their own nationhood or statehood properly at the time and even in that context they had a bloody civil war. 

Of course everybody would like to live in peace but... this whole game of 'realpolitik' or 'axis of evil' makes me pessimistic.

I still did not answer the question, yes.  Maybe i am too much involved in the problem that i can not see the solution but if it was that easy to answer.. well we wouldn't need to ask it right now, we would be living it



Edited by pegasusdi
imagination sets us free to be what we want to be
Back to Top
Mila View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4030
  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2006 at 16:34
The World Government couldn't really function unless it was absolutely enormous with each region have its own territorial government as well. Setting up such a system would not remedy any of the world's existing conflicts and could potentially cause a few more to reveal themselves.

It would probably need to resemble some sort of powerful United Nations in which the leader of the United Nations is leader of the world but with each territory having its own governments as well. Standards could be more universal but there'd still be great differences.

Overall I can't really say if it would be better or worse than what we have, but I think we can say with certainty there would still be disagreement and conflict.
[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor

Suspended

Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8792
  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2006 at 16:51

Originally posted by Tobodai

In order to get rid of war you would have to have a war that would crush all opposition to a world government.  You would need a Shi Hunag Ti like figure to ruthlessly impose a world government then go about ruthlessly imposing a new set of worldwide standards.

As far as i can tell, PNAC through its strategically placed members (Rumsfeld, Cheney, Perle, Bolton among others) is trying to accomplish just that.

Back to Top
Maharbbal View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 08-Mar-2006
Location: Paris
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2120
  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2006 at 21:16
Hi,

In my opinion things could be rather peacefull, just concider Switzerland
creation( but of course an alien invasion could help to create a world
identity ).

My vision of it would be more a suprem judge able to deal with conflicts
between states or private people and states. When you seen what the
European Court is doing and its influence upon countries' own system it
is amazing, and all this with so to speak no real legislative power!

Also I think only an ambitious man or woman could create a real
international (if not world) power using all the tricks to create the new
regimes.

Bye may these blessed days arrive before my grand grand grand children
are all dead
I am a free donkey!
Back to Top
Pieinsky View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 21-Apr-2006
Location: Ireland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 207
  Quote Pieinsky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2006 at 11:12

Overall I like the idea of globalisation, except there is one Major Disadvantage of a Global government, instead of a bunch of National governments sharing and existing on one planet.

Its much more difficult for a people on average to commit anarchy and overthrow their own government using physical force then another nation overthrowing that same government. Hence if Global government x is a Fascistic Totalitarian government, Its very likely that x government will be in power for a very long time.

 Of course this only applies if no similarly intelligent alien life has the ability to attack this world at that time.

I cannot envision a global nation.

I imagine the most possible stimulus of a global nation on earth as extraterrestrial life appearing out of the fog and stating their existence to us. Whenever a Humans group seems to encounter a possibly more dangerous foe they tend to amalgamate with another group or groups. This beat or pattern appears throughout human history. From tribes to states, from states to nations, 12345678-so on


 



Edited by Pieinsky
Back to Top
Curmudgeon View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 30-Nov-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
  Quote Curmudgeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2006 at 14:31

Originally posted by Tobodai

In order to get rid of war you would have to have a war that would crush all opposition to a world government.  You would need a Shi Hunag Ti like figure to ruthlessly impose a world government then go about ruthlessly imposing a new set of worldwide standards.

And just look how long his dynasty lasted!  

People tend to want liberty and independence, even from beneficial and tolerant regimes like Canada or Czechoslovokia.  So I have to join the bandwagon of the dubious when it comes to a universal regime.  Like pegasusdi, I distrust the idea based on my readings of speculative fiction as well.

That said, yet I do believe that the world could be better run.  It is a matter of better intelligence (and more intelligence ?) on the part of the leaders, and better communication and cooperation between people and resources.  If the various powers played their hands more skillfully, could not humanity benefit in general?  Example:  In 1990 (or was it '91?) Saddam Hussein interprets Ambassador April Glaspie's comments to mean that the U.S. will not interfere if he invades Kuait.  Entire chain of horrible events ensues, impacting global economy and destoying thousands of lives.  [ On the other hand, one can suppose that perhaps, just maybe, U.S. government intended Saddam to make just such a mistake.  If so, then this is no example ]. 

Thus, in order to have something approaching global peace and prosperity, it is necessary for regimes to improve their powers of prediction, but it is neither necessary nor desirable to have perfect unity nor perfect stability of regimes.

Back to Top
Tobodai View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Antarctica
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4310
  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2006 at 16:16
Originally posted by Zagros

Originally posted by Tobodai

In order to get rid of war you would have to have a war that would crush all opposition to a world government.  You would need a Shi Hunag Ti like figure to ruthlessly impose a world government then go about ruthlessly imposing a new set of worldwide standards.

As far as i can tell, PNAC through its strategically placed members (Rumsfeld, Cheney, Perle, Bolton among others) is trying to accomplish just that.

But the difference is Shi Huang Ti was smart, the people you mention are stupid.  If the world was to be unified under one power that power would have to have brains as well as strength.

And yes, the Chin dynasty lasted for a small amount of time, as a world government would.  Such a government could not outlive its founders.  Nonetheless, like the Chin dynasty the historical footprint of such a legacy would be immense.

"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
Back to Top
Spartakus View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
terörist

Joined: 22-Nov-2004
Location: Greece/Hellas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4489
  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2006 at 16:28
Global nation?All Balkanians together? Damn,i am sure there will be no global nation,as long as Balkans exist1
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
Back to Top
Dampier View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 04-Feb-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 749
  Quote Dampier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2006 at 17:21
I think a utopian nation is possible, but it would be based on drugs (to stop all those nast human habits like war, conflict, self abuse etc) and a sytem of controllers, all watching each other. Aside from the fact that would be very unpleasent i doubt we will see a single nation, particually considering the sheer amounts of differences between everyone. Hmm...drugs and brainwashing seem the only way.
Back to Top
pegasusdi View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 03-May-2006
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote pegasusdi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2006 at 05:04
Welcome to the scene of 1984 
imagination sets us free to be what we want to be
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2006 at 10:09

A global nation would be impossible. For the world to be unified it needs a common threat, a poster before reffered to Aliens as a common threat.We would have to dissolve RACE. Race does exist im afraid and theres a difference between someone whos of European origin and African origin. We would need one common Langauge, one common race, one common religion, to achive unity.

Or we could on going the way we are going and we will all be living in Police states.

Back to Top
Curmudgeon View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 30-Nov-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
  Quote Curmudgeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2006 at 14:24
Originally posted by machine

We would need one common Langauge, one common race, one common religion, to achive unity.

(1.)  Not necessarily.  There have been many successful multilingual, multiethnic, multifaith states, from the Persian to the AustroHungarian empire, to the U.S.A. and Brazil.

(2.)  Even if we DID have all that, I feel 100% certain that fractures would soon arise, based for example upon a generation gap, a new religious schism, political differences, or nascent oppression arising from the unparalleled power of a world government.  (I needn't list historical precedents!)  

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.