Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedApril 24- Operation "Eagle Claw"
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Temujin View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: April 24- Operation "Eagle Claw"
    Posted: 25-Apr-2006 at 17:14
we all know that Armenias suffered a lot from WW1 but to call it a genocide is like calling Alexanders conquest a Persian genocide etc...you can virtually call ANY war where a certain population suffered a lot of deaths a genocide, this is pointless...
Back to Top
mamikon View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 16-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2200 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2006 at 17:46
I think your argument is pointless, since Armenia has been under Ottoman Empire for 400 years prior the genocide.

Edited by mamikon
Back to Top
Artaxiad View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 10-Aug-2004
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 488 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2006 at 18:28
 first Iran denies the Holocaust, now they want the world to acknowledge a so-called Armenian genocide??   


As Mamikon said, Iran's denial of the Holocaust is a political stunt, similar to Israel's, USA's, and Britain's denial of the Armenian genocide.
Back to Top
Behi View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 27-Apr-2005
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2268 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2006 at 18:43
@Temujin:
He's same as Angla Merkel: Iran as Bad as Nazi
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8893& ;KW=nazi
Do you agree with her???
Back to Top
erci View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1426 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2006 at 21:01
Some reality if anyone interested

between 1900 and 1915

29 Armenians achieved the highest governmental rank of pasha,
22 Armenians became ministers, including Ministers of Foreign Affairs,
33 Armenians were elected to the Parliament,
7 Armenians were appointed as Ambassadors, 11 as Consul Generals,
11 Armenians served in universities as professors.

In Ottoman Empire.

There were 803 Armenian schools employing 2088 teachers with over 80,000 pupils within the Ottoman Empire in 1901-2

Edited by erci
"When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?"
Back to Top
mamikon View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 16-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2200 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2006 at 21:11
Where is the data from...

and after 1915?
Back to Top
erci View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1426 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2006 at 21:24
Ottoman archives

here's the complete list.



  Gabriel Noradunkyan                 Foreign Minister
  Ohannes Sakiz Pasha                 Ambassador
  Artin Dadyan Pasha                  Ambassador
  Harutyan Dadyan Pasha               Ambassador
  Manuk Azaryan                       Ambassador
  Agop Kazazyan Pasha                 Finance Minister
  Mikael Portaklayan Pasha            Finance Minister
  Ohannes Sakiz Pasha                 Finance Minister
  Field Marshal Garabet Artin Davud   PTT Minister
  Field Marshal Garabet Artin Davud   Housing, Urban Development
Minister
  Andon Tingir Yaver Pasha            High Court Justice 
  Abraham Yeramyan Pasha              High Court Justice
  Mihran Duz                          High Court Justice 
  Bedros Kuyumcuyan                   High Court Justice 
  Agop Gircikyan                      Counselor to Reshid Pasha (1834
-)
                                      Charg d'affaires of Paris
Embassy
                                      Paris Ambassador
  Krikor Agaton                       PTT Minister (1864) 
                                      Foreign Office official  (1848 -
1850)
  Sahak Abro                          Foreign Office General Secretary
(1850 - ) =
  Sebuh Laz                           1st Secretary, Paris Embassy
(1863)
  Krikor Odyan                        Foreign Office Judgement Manager
(1870)
  Serkis Efendi                       Confidential Secretary, Foreign
Office (1870-1871)
  Ovakim K. Reisyan                   Court Chairman, Vize Town,
Istanbul (1879)
  Artin Dadyan Pasha                  Undersecretary, Foreign Office
(1880
  Diran Aleksan Bey                   Ambassador to Belgium (1862) 
                                      Post Telephone Telegraph
Inspector
  Yetvart Zohrab Efendi               Ambassador to England (1838 -
1839)
  Hirant Duz Beg                      Ambassador to Italy (1900 -
1907)
  Hovsep Misakyan Efendi              Ambassador to La Haye (1900 -
1907)
  Sarkis Balyan                       Consul General, Montenegro,
Italy (1900 - )
  Azaryan Manuk Efendi                Undersecretary,  Foreign Office
  Kapriyel Noradunkyan                Minister of Foreign Office in
Gazi Ahmet Muhtar
                                      Pasha's Cabinet (1912)
  Agop Kazazyan Pasha                 Finance Minister, Treasury 
Minister
  Mikael Portukal Pasha               Counselor to Finance Minister 
(1886- )
                                      General Director of Ziraat Bank 
                                      Minister of Civil List (1891)
  Sakiz Ohannes Pasha                  General Secretary, Foreign
Office (1871)
                                      Treasury  Minister  (1897)
  Garabet Artin Davut Pasha            Ambassador to Vienna (1856 -
1857)
                                      Governor of Lebanon (1861) 
                                      PTT Minister
                                      Minister of Public Works (1868)
  Krikor Sinapyan                     Minister of Public Works  
  Krikor Agaton                       PTT General Manager (1864) 
  Jorj Serpos Efendi                  PTT General Secretary (1868) 
  Osgan Mardikyan                     PTT Minister (1913) 
  Tomas Terziyan                      Lecturer in School of Civil
Servants
  Nisan Gugasyan                      Lecturer in School of Civil
Servants
  Tavit Ciraciyan                     Lecturers in School of Civil
Servants
  Krikor Zohrab                       MP of Istanbul 
  Bedros Hallaciyan                   MP of Istanbul

                                         

Armenian language was the official language in Ottoman foreign
relations.

 http://mailgate.supereva.com/soc/soc.culture.assyrian/msg012 42.html
After 1915? well, Ottoman Empire lost the WWI and vanished from the scene
"When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?"
Back to Top
mamikon View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 16-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2200 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 04:24
"

well, there  still was Ottoman Empire during 1915...what happened to all those ambassodors, ministers, etc... "

and I wouldnt really trust that source. It has been posted in a forum I think. And the poster himself doestn give a source..


Edited by mamikon
Back to Top
TheDiplomat View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1988 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 11:21

Eveen just before the first world war during the Balkan wars the foreign minister of the Ottoman Empire was an Armenian nationalist-Gabriel Noradukian as Erci put....

But ofcourse you can still turn a blind eye to the facts.
ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!

Back to Top
mamikon View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 16-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2200 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 12:42
The Young Turk movement  brought relative equality  to all peaople in  the Empire, thats until the military coup after the Balkan Wars, that the movement got so perverted.

lol, its funny you accuse me of turning blind to facts, while all you believe it the Turkish givernment and McCarthy....sad really. And still, I wonder what the source is for that data...

And again, what happened to all those ambassadors and ministers and etc. after the war, would you please comment on that?
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 14:57

Originally posted by mamikon

I think your argument is pointless, since Armenia has been under Ottoman Empire for 400 years prior the genocide.

pointless? a government has every right to surpress a nationalist uprising and fight terrorism within its own borders, especially if the uprising is supported by a foreign power.

Originally posted by Artaxiad

As Mamikon said, Iran's denial of the Holocaust is a political stunt, similar to Israel's, USA's, and Britain's denial of the Armenian genocide.

stunt or not, there is no reason to believe in an ethnical genocide of Armenians because facts don't support this. we know Armenians suffered badly, but i have found now reason to believe those were ethnically motivated.

Originally posted by Land of Aryan

@Temujin:
He's same as Angla Merkel: Iran as Bad as Nazi
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8893& ; ;KW=nazi
Do you agree with her???

i have never supported the Conservatives in my life and certainly i didn't vote for Merkel, but she never said what has been claimed in this thread and it has been pointed out in the thread already...
Back to Top
mamikon View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 16-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2200 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 16:21
"pointless? a government has every right to surpress a nationalist uprising and fight terrorism within its own borders, especially if the uprising is supported by a foreign power."

there is a difference between suppression of some rebel elements, and destroying a whole civilization...according to your logic, the Turkish Government has a right to murder all the of 15,000,000 Kurds in Turkey, after all, Kurds are more active now than Armenians have ever been prior to the Genocide. Your logic makes me sick...

"stunt or not, there is no reason to believe in an ethnical genocide of Armenians because facts don't support this. we know Armenians suffered badly, but i have found now reason to believe those were ethnically motivated."

On the contrary facts do support this...but denialists choose to ignore them
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 17:01

 your lies make me sick. one of my co-worker is Kurd from Kars and he calls himself a Turk, all other Kurds i know too. none of them want independence. you can call me denialist as you wish, doesn't help your cause at all though...
Back to Top
mamikon View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 16-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2200 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 17:11
exaclty how it was 91 years ago...

most Armenians did not want independence, there were some, a very small minority who did, but all of them got massacred/deported. And it is the case in Turkey now. Some, a very small minority of Kurds wants to be independent.

So following your logic, just like the Ottoman Empire destroyed all the Armenians 91 years ago, Turkey has the right to destroy all Kurds now...and thats whats sickening...


Edited by mamikon
Back to Top
bg_turk View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2347 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 21:26

24th April was commemorated by Armenians in Bulgaria too.

There was a protest in Ruse, where a petition was started to ask the Bulgarian parliament to recognize the events of 1915 as an  "Armenian Genocide".

The Bulgarian State TV referred to the events as "Armenian Genocide" completely disregarding the hundreds of thousands of muslims who have lost their lives.

An Armenian friend of mine told me there was going to be a demonstration in Plovdiv, and that she was going to join it. 
http://www.journalof911studies.com
Back to Top
TheDiplomat View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1988 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 05:22

Originally posted by mamikon

And again, what happened to all those ambassadors and ministers and etc. after the war, would you please comment on that?

I gave Noradukian as an example so I will tell about him..After the war he started to live in France....AT lusanne he was still lobbying for a state in the eastern anatolia for the Armenians...

It seems that I know Armenians better than you
ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!

Back to Top
TheDiplomat View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1988 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 05:28

most Armenians did not want independence, there were some, a very small minority who did, but all of them got massacred/deported. And it is the case in Turkey now. Some, a very small minority of Kurds wants to be independent.

On 18th May 1915 the Russian Tsar Nicholas II sent a telegram to Aram Manukian,the leader of the Great Armenian Rebellion.In that telegram Tsar Nicholas II was expresssing his gratefullness for the service of the Armenians to the Russian Empire,and thenkful for it as well as promising a free autonomous Armenian state.

The Nationalist Dashnag and  Marxist Hinchak Armenian rebellion organizations had well-armed the local people much before WWI.

I pity at you...as a history lover you are supposed to get into deeper in topics you care about most...

Turning a blind a eye will not get you anywhere.
ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!

Back to Top
mamikon View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 16-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2200 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 09:22
"I gave Noradukian as an example so I will tell about him..After the war he started to live in France....AT lusanne he was still lobbying for a state in the eastern anatolia for the Armenians.."

So why would the "great" ambassador find him in France? maybe because he had to flee? and not only him, but many Armenias were lobbying at Lusanne? and why wouldnt they? the Ottomans just killed more than 75% of their populations...

and I still dont see where the source of those names and position is...

 "On 18th May 1915 the Russian Tsar Nicholas II sent a telegram to Aram Manukian,the leader of the Great Armenian Rebellion.In that telegram Tsar Nicholas II was expresssing his gratefullness for the service of the Armenians to the Russian Empire,and thenkful for it as well as promising a free autonomous Armenian state."

"Great Armenian Rebellion"...and where did you gett this term from? Can you tell me in how many places Armenians rebelled? before the Genocide? The nationalist Hinchak and Dashnak  were based in Russia, and they mainly acted against Russia, until they saw their brethren massacred in mass, right next door, then of course they would start fighting the Ottomans...why is it that I am expecting some great Turkish archive source or one of McCarthy's books...to prove me wrong.

"I pity at you...as a history lover you are supposed to get into deeper in topics you care about most...

Turning a blind a eye will not get you anywhere."

Just because you run out of arguments, you dont have to say bs like "I pity you" or "open your eyes"....since I am saying what everyone else is saying.


Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 14:06

Originally posted by mamikon

exaclty how it was 91 years ago...

most Armenians did not want independence, there were some, a very small minority who did, but all of them got massacred/deported. And it is the case in Turkey now. Some, a very small minority of Kurds wants to be independent.

So following your logic, just like the Ottoman Empire destroyed all the Armenians 91 years ago, Turkey has the right to destroy all Kurds now...and thats whats sickening...

how you explain Turkey not killing Arabs en masse? Arabs certainly were more in favour of independence than Armenians yet we don't hear of an Arab genocide...and to use your words: where did you get the term "Armenian genocide" from? probably minted by nationalists with a hidden agenda...
Back to Top
mamikon View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 16-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2200 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 14:56
my point all along...Armenians were massacred not because they rebelled, but because they were of different faith, and were hated, and stood in the way of Enver's pan-Turkist dream.. You yourself just said that Armenians were killed not because they rebelled...

the term "Armenian Genocide" I got from Raphael Lemkin himself, ther person who coined the term "Genocide", to describe what happened to the Armenians in WWI and to the Jews in WWII
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.