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Mila
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Topic: Katarina Kosaca as a contention between Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs Posted: 20-Apr-2006 at 22:34 |
KATARINA VELIKA
CATHERINE THE GREAT
Catherine
the Great of Bosnia was the country's last Queen. She converted from
the Bosnian Church to Roman Catholicism when medieval Bosnia, and the
Church, fell to the Ottoman Empire. She built a Roman Catholic Church
in the Bosnian capital of the time (Jajce) where her remains are still
burried and was declared a Roman Catholic saint. I've already made a
thread about her so I won't give her life story here so I won't get
into it again.
This thread is to demonstrate the depth and level of contention on some
issues between Croats, Bosniaks, and Serbs - especially historical
issues related to Bosnia and Herzegovina. I will do this using
portraits of Catherine the Great of Bosnia.
First, a Croat depiction:
The Croatian depiction of St. Catherine depicts her without a crown and
she is labelled Queen of Croatian Bosnia. The reason she is not shown
with a crown is because, to Croatian historians, Bosnia was only a part
of Croatia and she was thus not really a Queen - only in name.
A Bosnian depiction:
The Bosnian depiction is the only one St. Catherine actually sat for as
was painted in her lifetime. Not only does it clearly show she is
wearing a crown, it also shows the Bosnian Lily design of the crown - a
symbol specific to Bosnia and Herzegovina and used by Bosnian royals
and nobles to distinguish themselves from their Croatian and Serbian
cousins.
A Serbian depiction:
The Serbian depiction of St. Catherine paints her as an Orthodox
Christian wearing the royal garb of Serbian Queens. It is also done in
the iconic style of Byzantine art - this despite the fact St. Catherine
was born a Bosnian, adopted the Croatian faith, and never once set foot
inside Serbia.
The same woman, three different points of view. Her life, identity, and
death are anything but controversial - it is well documented and there
are volumes about her in museums in Italy, Austria, and Bosnia and
Herzegovina. Despite this, it's still an issue of contention. I think
it's interesting to demonstrate our historical conflicts in this way.
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Mila
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Posted: 20-Apr-2006 at 23:02 |
One more issue of contention:
Katarina had one son and one daughter who survived the Ottoman
conquest. Their ancestors are undoubtably still living today and up
until WWII there was an unofficial royal line in Bosnia and
Herzegovina. The last unofficial Queen of Bosnia, a Muslim woman named
Branka, was killed during WWII at the age of 15. Now this was just one
branch of Catherine's ancestry to be sure.
Now, Croatian and Serbian historians say both her children converted to
Islam and that her daughter was taken to Istanbul, and that line of the
family lives today in Izmir.
Bosnian historians say the daughter converted to Islam and remained in
Bosnia, and the son converted to Roman Catholicism and fled to Croatia.
Bosnian historians suggest the Dizdarevic family line in Jajce and
Travnik are the descendants of Catherine's daughter.
Nadja Dizdarevic is jokingly referred to as the Queen of Bosnia these
days, although the links between her family and Jajce or Travnik are
weak.
In any event, there's no mechanism in place to revive the Bosnian
monarchy but several of Bosnia's wealthiest families in Jajce and
Travnik have been battling for the title for years - but it's just like
the French family that says they're the descendants of Jesus, everyone
just laughs.
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Maju
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Posted: 23-Apr-2006 at 18:57 |
Is there a family that claims they are descendant of Jesus? That's cool! My grandpa used to claim that his lineage came from Hector of Troy... why do people have to want to be the descendant of someone of the past instead of him/herself in the present?
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 24-Apr-2006 at 02:06 |
Very interesting, Mila. It would seem all three national groups wanted of piece of the action when it came to this lady.
I do wonder, what sort of role were the aristocracy and monarchy able
to play in the Balkans after the area had been conquered by the
Ottomans? No doubt their ability to wield actual power would have been
helped by converting to Islam.
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Mila
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Posted: 24-Apr-2006 at 02:20 |
Much of the aristocracy was killed in rebellions, not related to the
Ottomans, in the years before their forces arrival. Those who converted
to Islam were generally given positions of power in the cities they
once ruled but a huge number were taken to Istanbul and shamed as lower
class people. The highest positions generally went to successful
peasants and janissaries or imported aristocrats.
Aristocrats today are a mix. You have some that were from medieval
times - Kulenovic family, etc. But the rest are all Ottoman-made
wealthy families. There are, quite literally, no Christian aristocrats.
There are wealthy families from the Austro-Hungarian and Yugoslav era,
but none with the extended history like pre-Ottoman families who
converted or got rich during the Empire.
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Dan Carkner
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Posted: 27-Apr-2007 at 10:25 |
Great thread!
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Larus
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Posted: 28-Apr-2007 at 04:46 |
Originally posted by Mila
...it also shows the Bosnian Lily design of the crown - a
symbol specific to Bosnia and Herzegovina and used by Bosnian royals
and nobles to distinguish themselves from their Croatian and Serbian
cousins.
...adopted the Croatian faith.
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First, Bosnian nobles used Lilies not as a symbol of distinguishing themselves from Croats or Serbs (there was no political reason to do that, example- Tvrtko was more than happy
to declare himself a Serbian king /The King of Serbs, to be more precise/ when opportunity arose to claim its
vacant throne), but originally as a symbol of submission to senior Angevin-Hungarian Royal House. Croatian faith? What are you trying to imply here? Stephen Nemanja was born Catholic- does that mean he is Croat too? Regarding contention between Serbs, Croats, and Bosniaks- most of modern Ex-Yugoslavian historians are behaving much like Roman annalists (of later period) did - transferring contemporary political climate into the earlier history, in our unfortunate case especially when in regard to the notion of the nation (Serbian, Bosniak, Croatian, and/or Bosnian likewise). I had to react to your thread, because I couldn't help feeling you are doing the same thing. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is my general feeling. Also, I apologize for my English, however it is not my native language. Cheers, Larus
Edited by Larus - 28-Apr-2007 at 05:53
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Posted: 28-Apr-2007 at 12:06 |
He did not declare himself a "Serbian" king, he declared himself king of Serbs, big difference. Such as many other monarchs declared themselves king of another kingdom, etc...
As far as Catholic, Orthodox, Islamic, etc... I agree none of those have ever been determinants of ethnicity up until the late 19th century.
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Larus
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Posted: 28-Apr-2007 at 13:30 |
Originally posted by es_bih
He did not declare himself a "Serbian" king, he declared himself king of Serbs, big difference. Such as many other monarchs declared themselves king of another kingdom, etc.. |
I believe I have already corrected myself on that matter- yes, you are right "The King of Serbs", not "The Serbian King". P.S. Other than the few disagreements I have, it's very informative thread- and nice stamp of Katarina- I never saw that one before.
Edited by Larus - 28-Apr-2007 at 13:59
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