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Katarina Kosaca as a contention between Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs

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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Katarina Kosaca as a contention between Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs
    Posted: 20-Apr-2006 at 22:34
KATARINA VELIKA
CATHERINE THE GREAT

Catherine the Great of Bosnia was the country's last Queen. She converted from the Bosnian Church to Roman Catholicism when medieval Bosnia, and the Church, fell to the Ottoman Empire. She built a Roman Catholic Church in the Bosnian capital of the time (Jajce) where her remains are still burried and was declared a Roman Catholic saint. I've already made a thread about her so I won't give her life story here so I won't get into it again.

This thread is to demonstrate the depth and level of contention on some issues between Croats, Bosniaks, and Serbs - especially historical issues related to Bosnia and Herzegovina. I will do this using portraits of Catherine the Great of Bosnia.

First, a Croat depiction:



The Croatian depiction of St. Catherine depicts her without a crown and she is labelled Queen of Croatian Bosnia. The reason she is not shown with a crown is because, to Croatian historians, Bosnia was only a part of Croatia and she was thus not really a Queen - only in name.

A Bosnian depiction:



The Bosnian depiction is the only one St. Catherine actually sat for as was painted in her lifetime. Not only does it clearly show she is wearing a crown, it also shows the Bosnian Lily design of the crown - a symbol specific to Bosnia and Herzegovina and used by Bosnian royals and nobles to distinguish themselves from their Croatian and Serbian cousins.

A Serbian depiction:



The Serbian depiction of St. Catherine paints her as an Orthodox Christian wearing the royal garb of Serbian Queens. It is also done in the iconic style of Byzantine art - this despite the fact St. Catherine was born a Bosnian, adopted the Croatian faith, and never once set foot inside Serbia.

The same woman, three different points of view. Her life, identity, and death are anything but controversial - it is well documented and there are volumes about her in museums in Italy, Austria, and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Despite this, it's still an issue of contention. I think it's interesting to demonstrate our historical conflicts in this way.
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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2006 at 23:02
One more issue of contention:

Katarina had one son and one daughter who survived the Ottoman conquest. Their ancestors are undoubtably still living today and up until WWII there was an unofficial royal line in Bosnia and Herzegovina. The last unofficial Queen of Bosnia, a Muslim woman named Branka, was killed during WWII at the age of 15. Now this was just one branch of Catherine's ancestry to be sure.

Now, Croatian and Serbian historians say both her children converted to Islam and that her daughter was taken to Istanbul, and that line of the family lives today in Izmir.

Bosnian historians say the daughter converted to Islam and remained in Bosnia, and the son converted to Roman Catholicism and fled to Croatia. Bosnian historians suggest the Dizdarevic family line in Jajce and Travnik are the descendants of Catherine's daughter.

Nadja Dizdarevic is jokingly referred to as the Queen of Bosnia these days, although the links between her family and Jajce or Travnik are weak.

In any event, there's no mechanism in place to revive the Bosnian monarchy but several of Bosnia's wealthiest families in Jajce and Travnik have been battling for the title for years - but it's just like the French family that says they're the descendants of Jesus, everyone just laughs.
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2006 at 18:57
Is there a family that claims they are descendant of Jesus? That's cool!  My grandpa used to claim that his lineage came from Hector of Troy... why do people have to want to be the descendant of someone of the past instead of him/herself in the present? 

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2006 at 02:06
Very interesting, Mila. It would seem all three national groups wanted of piece of the action when it came to this lady.

I do wonder, what sort of role were the aristocracy and monarchy able to play in the Balkans after the area had been conquered by the Ottomans? No doubt their ability to wield actual power would have been helped by converting to Islam.
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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2006 at 02:20
Much of the aristocracy was killed in rebellions, not related to the Ottomans, in the years before their forces arrival. Those who converted to Islam were generally given positions of power in the cities they once ruled but a huge number were taken to Istanbul and shamed as lower class people. The highest positions generally went to successful peasants and janissaries or imported aristocrats.

Aristocrats today are a mix. You have some that were from medieval times - Kulenovic family, etc. But the rest are all Ottoman-made wealthy families. There are, quite literally, no Christian aristocrats. There are wealthy families from the Austro-Hungarian and Yugoslav era, but none with the extended history like pre-Ottoman families who converted or got rich during the Empire.
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  Quote Dan Carkner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2007 at 10:25

Great thread! 
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  Quote Larus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2007 at 04:46
Originally posted by Mila

...it also shows the Bosnian Lily design of the crown - a symbol specific to Bosnia and Herzegovina and used by Bosnian royals and nobles to distinguish themselves from their Croatian and Serbian cousins.
 
...adopted the Croatian faith.



First, Bosnian  nobles used Lilies not as a symbol of distinguishing themselves from Croats or Serbs (there was no political reason to do that, example- Tvrtko was more than happy to declare himself a Serbian king /The King of Serbs, to be more precise/ when opportunity arose to claim its vacant throne), but originally as a symbol of submission to senior Angevin-Hungarian Royal House.

Croatian faith? What are you trying to imply here? Stephen Nemanja was born Catholic- does that mean he is Croat too?

Regarding contention between Serbs, Croats, and Bosniaks- most of modern Ex-Yugoslavian historians are behaving much like Roman annalists (of later period) did - transferring contemporary political climate into the earlier history, in our unfortunate case especially when in regard to the notion of the nation (Serbian, Bosniak, Croatian, and/or Bosnian likewise). I had to react to your thread, because I couldn't help feeling you are doing the same thing. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is my general feeling.

Also, I apologize for my English, however it is not my native language.

Cheers,
Larus



Edited by Larus - 28-Apr-2007 at 05:53
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2007 at 12:06

He did not declare himself a "Serbian" king, he declared himself king of Serbs, big difference. Such as many other monarchs declared themselves king of another kingdom, etc...

 
As far as Catholic, Orthodox, Islamic, etc... I agree none of those have ever been determinants of ethnicity up until the late 19th century.
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  Quote Larus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2007 at 13:30
Originally posted by es_bih

He did not declare himself a "Serbian" king, he declared himself king of Serbs, big difference. Such as many other monarchs declared themselves king of another kingdom, etc..



I believe I have already corrected  myself  on that matter- yes, you are right "The King of Serbs", not "The Serbian King".

P.S. Other than the few disagreements I have, it's very informative thread- and nice stamp of Katarina- I never saw that one before.


Edited by Larus - 28-Apr-2007 at 13:59
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