Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Swiss infantry
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Quetzalcoatl View Drop Down
General
General

Suspended

Joined: 05-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 984 		  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Swiss infantry
    Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 19:45
 The swiss in fact was indirectly a great help to France without them we would have Burgundy as another hereditary enemy just like England. THe Swiss weakening the Brugundian was crucial for them being conquered by us and assmiliated.
Back to Top
Quetzalcoatl View Drop Down
General
General

Suspended

Joined: 05-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 984 		  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 19:48
Originally posted by Clovis

[QUOTE=Roughneck]About as hard as rationalizing the land of Beethoven, Motzart, and Einstein give us Hitler, Himmler, and Heydrich?

 

 What is it Austria or Germany, Mozart and Hitler were austrians, so you are mixing two countries together. Anyway that doesn't make any sense, having good musicians and scientists doesn't mean your society is a peaceful one.
Back to Top
Roughneck View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 192 		  Quote Roughneck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 21:44
I lumped Austria and Germany for the purposes of making a point.  Yeah, maybe I shouldn't have, but do you get the idea?  There are Austrians and Germans on both sides of the coin I presented.  That comparison proves that good science and music don't make your society peaceful.  The point is that things like that can happen anywhere.  The nightmare came true in Germany, but any nation that isn't careful can fall into that trap.
[IMG]http://img160.exs.cx/img160/7417/14678932fstore0pc.jpg">
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 07:10

Originally posted by TJK


Well, I have really no knowledge about  the economical position of Swiss peasantry..but what have the Swabia here to do ?

because the Swiss (or at least the german speaking Swiss) cantons were part of Swabia.

Sorry Temujin but I don't see the  contradictions here..Habsburgs attempt  to subordinate the  "Forest Cantons", thus Swiss have fight for independence despite the fact they were more or less independent  before..

well, again it's just a minor thing, the Swiss only got "real" indipendence after the 30-years war, until that time they were part of the HRE as a self-governing "peasant-republic". all they wanted to avoid was immediate Imperial (Habsburg) rule, so they were fighting for liberty, not independence.

(or just look the expamles of Macedonian formations in the "Armies of Ancient World " by John Warry )

I can't remember havign read that int eh book, and I didn't found a depiction of the "hedgehog" formation


I don't mean Swiss and Germans but Swiss vs Landknechts which were in fact the rivals as a mercenaries...

well, it was not directed towards you...

but comign back to Landsknechts again...if i'm not wrogn then the most or at least the original Landsknechts came from the Swabia provicnes, so there'sno difference between the two anyways...the swiss were just the free "mountain-Swabians" and the Landsknechst were the Imperial "plain Swabians".

Originally posted by Roughneck

I lumped Austria and Germany for the purposes of making a point.  Yeah, maybe I shouldn't have, but do you get the idea?  There are Austrians and Germans on both sides of the coin I presented.  That comparison proves that good science and music don't make your society peaceful.  The point is that things like that can happen anywhere.  The nightmare came true in Germany, but any nation that isn't careful can fall into that trap.

i've thought much about that... a lot of Germans always asked 'why could a great cultural nation like us fall back to such barbarism?'...but if you look at other great cultural nations like Persia and China you see that today even they also have an evil regime that killed hundreds...there must be some sort of connection ut I couldn't figure it out.



Edited by Temujin
Back to Top
rider View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar

Suspended

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4664 		  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 07:16
but in the mountains they could have better weapons and better tactics so they would be better
Back to Top
Roughneck View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 192 		  Quote Roughneck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 00:01
Originally posted by Temujin

I've thought much about that... a lot of Germans always asked 'why could a great cultural nation like us fall back to such barbarism?'...but if you look at other great cultural nations like Persia and China you see that today even they also have an evil regime that killed hundreds...there must be some sort of connection ut I couldn't figure it out.

It's because of a wonderful thing called human nature!
[IMG]http://img160.exs.cx/img160/7417/14678932fstore0pc.jpg">
Back to Top
TJK View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 367 		  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 00:19

because the Swiss (or at least the German speaking Swiss) cantons were part of Swabia.

Well, in different periods it's belongs to the different states - some lands were for example the part of Burgundia..I think it's generalization that Swiss were just Swabians.. but come back to the your objection  regarding the word "poor" - in this case it means no more than Swiss were really poor in comparison to the other states/lands which have issued the "new model infantry"  like northern  Italian cities, Flandry and Czechia. I'm however ready to remove it from my description..

well, again it's just a minor thing, the Swiss only got "real" independence after the 30-years war, until that time they were part of the HRE as a self-governing "peasant-republic". all they wanted to avoid was immediate Imperial (Habsburg) rule, so they were fighting for liberty, not independence


Well,  you have not write about minor thing but about major inaccuracies so it should be cleared..

1. The real independency the Swiss have achieved much earlier - in the XIV centaury

2. The formal independency they achieved after the treaty of Westfaly in 1648

Thus I will not change my initial post...


but coming back to Landsknechts again...if I'm not wrong then the most or at least the original Landsknechts came from the Swabia provinces, so there's no difference between the two anyways...the Swiss were just the free "mountain-Swabians" and the Landsknechst were the Imperial "plain Swabians".

I think you are wrong.. sorry.. for the first time the term " Lantknechten" appear in the chronicle of Johan von Possigle in 1417 regarding the castle of Bassinhausen in Pommeren...

Regarding the Landknechts formed by Maximilian Habsburg - they were formed starting from1482 in Netherland from the (mostly) Germans (but not limited to the Swabians)



Edited by TJK
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 12:17

well I didn't said you should change anything, just wanted to point out about your initial posting, it looked like the Swiss were some poor opressed people like the Samurai in the "Last Samurai" movie...

but come back to the your objection  regarding the word "poor" - in this case it means no more than Swiss were really poor in comparison to the other states/lands which have issued the "new model infantry"  like northern  Italian cities, Flandry and Czechia. I'm however ready to remove it from my description.

well, just like I said in my previous statement, the province was poor, the real rich provinces of the HRE were the Lower countries and the northern Italian states, due to trade. but the Swiss peasantry, with that I mean the common people, were quite wealthy. and of corse not all Swiss were of Swabian origin, but the majority, and especially the three original Kantons.

1. The real independency the Swiss have achieved much earlier - in the XIV centaury

well, as I said, the immediate Feudal lord of the Swiss already died in 1218, and when in the 1270's the Habsburger began to impose their rule, the Swiss declared the "eternal Union" in 1291. then, in the peace of Basel of 1499 the Habsburg officially acknowledged the Swiss confederacy (as part of the HRE).

Back to Top
TJK View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 367 		  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 14:10
Ok Temujin, may we should continue then about Landknechts ?
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 15:29
what do you mean?
Back to Top
TJK View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 367 		  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 16:47
Landknechts were just the formation which have develop the Swiss idea and which maintain it up to the 30-yers War..
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 16:52
I do not agree. you said Landsknecht were mercenaries from the Low countries liek Flanders and brabant, and they have a longer tradition of pike-warfare than the Swiss. just the term Landsknecht is younger than the Swiss mercenaries...
Back to Top
TJK View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 367 		  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 17:05
you said Landsknecht were mercenaries from the Low countries liek Flanders and brabant, and they have a longer tradition of pike-warfare than the Swiss. just the term Landsknecht is younger than the Swiss mercenaries...

No! I have said that the term " Lantknechten" have appeared in the chronicle of Johan von Possigle in 1417 regarding some Pommeren soldiers and that this term have been adopted by Maximilan Habsburg for the new formation fashioned in Swiss style  which have been formed in the Low Countries.  The new formation was open for all people from Germany..The instructors for this new formation were recruted from experienced Swiss mercenaries..
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 17:32

did the Dutch had pike-formations before the Swiss or not?
Back to Top
TJK View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 367 		  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 17:50

did the Dutch had pike-formations before the Swiss or not?

Yep, they have used like phalanax formations armed with goedendag - with same smaller amount of archers (bowmens and crossbowmens)

goedendag picture:
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 18:01
so do you agree or not that the Dutch were ahead of the Swiss concerning pike-formations?
Back to Top
Gallipoli View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 318 		  Quote Gallipoli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2004 at 04:48

There was an article in the Air France magazine about the Swiss Halberdiers who are protecting the Pope.

We have Swiss Commandos protecting the permanent mission of Israel to the UN in the same building where my father works...everyday I am afraid some mad terrorist would blow the building up...
Back to Top
Hyarmendacil View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai


Joined: 17-Aug-2004
Location: Indonesia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 114 		  Quote Hyarmendacil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2004 at 11:50

The Dutch and the Flemings (as well as the Scots) adopted the pike sooner than did the Swiss but they did not actually develop a way to use it offensively. Therefore, we can say that offensive pike warfare in Middle Age Europe began with the Swiss and the Landsknechts.
Back to Top
TJK View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 367 		  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2004 at 15:24

Hey Hyarmendacil !

Welcome back !!!

Quote:

The Dutch and the Flemings (as well as the Scots) adopted the pike sooner than did the Swiss but they did not actually develop a way to use it offensively. Therefore, we can say that offensive pike warfare in Middle Age Europe began with the Swiss and the Landsknechts.

Exactly my point...

Back to Top
Hyarmendacil View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai


Joined: 17-Aug-2004
Location: Indonesia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 114 		  Quote Hyarmendacil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2004 at 07:53
No need to shout, TJK. I'm just as happy to see you all. And you're welcome for the welcome--if you take what I mean.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.