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Topic ClosedEpirotans were Greeks or Illyrians ?
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Arbr Z View Drop Down
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Posts: 598 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Epirotans were Greeks or Illyrians ?
    Posted: 31-May-2006 at 15:45
Originally posted by akritas

Homer mention a lot of historical places such as Pieria,Emathia and Magnetes.
 
The book  is
 
 
 
Thank you! And another question to you, please tell me the title and author of the more credible, accurate history of the albanians, in your opinion. I mean the best of what you ve read or heard and with whom you agree mostly.
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Posts: 1460 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 15:59
Very difficult question.Because I have to choose between Greeks and non-Greeks writers.  In my personnal opinion I think Vickers books are the best. The Albanians and The Albania and the Jacques book the worst. As about the Greeks are several books.

Edited by akritas - 31-May-2006 at 16:00
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Posts: 598 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 16:35
there is a new topic on this, but please feel free to post also the names of the greek historians. And I would like to know also why do you like them, what is their strong point.
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Posts: 769 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 17:40
Arber, welcome to the forum, there is a literature section you could ask this question so at the sametime this page could stay on topic
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Posts: 598 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 17:51
Originally posted by Theodore Felix

Arber, welcome to the forum, there is a literature section you could ask this question so at the sametime this page could stay on topic
 
Dori, I already opened another forum. It is on modern history, and I thought it would be better there than on Literature. I am not interested just in the book or in the author. What I want to know is how the participants on this forum know Albania and its history.
 
Faleminderit pr mirseardhjen
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Posts: 130 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 03:21
Originally posted by dorian

 
Mr...Golden Blood,
 
1. your nickname shows how a racist you are
 
2. Albanian Chams are Albanians and not Greeks
 
3. Arvanites are not Albanians (if you say it to an Arvanite he'll got angry because this is one of the biggest frauds which unfortunately is very popular in Greece too)
 
4. geneological studies indicate that the greek people is pure
 
5. lay off my grandfather and go to find your roots


Mr Dorian Big smile

1) first I am not racist I hate racist

2) ofcourse were/are Albanians but fact is ortodhoks chams are   assimilated with time here.

3) It is Crap of year Confused, Arvanitet are puro Albanian by antropology, linguistic.

We (all the Albanians) used to be called "Arberesh" or "Arbanit" in the medevil period, the people that moved to Italy kept the original name, the people that moved to Greece changed the name a little bit because the "b" is "v" in Greek, so instead of Arbanite it came to be Arvanite.....and this all historian greeks and evropians know.

4) sure? Tongue ok...

5) good Sleepy

God bless you!, good luck
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Posts: 130 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 03:24
Arber Z cfare literatura po kerkon? ndoshta te ndihmoj diqka!
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Posts: 1460 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 03:53
GoldenBlood can we stay in the topic please ?
If you want to open another issues there are another forum such the non-english or the Current affairs.
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Posts: 370 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 06:42
Originally posted by GoldenBlood

Originally posted by dorian

 
Mr...Golden Blood,
 
1. your nickname shows how a racist you are
 
2. Albanian Chams are Albanians and not Greeks
 
3. Arvanites are not Albanians (if you say it to an Arvanite he'll got angry because this is one of the biggest frauds which unfortunately is very popular in Greece too)
 
4. geneological studies indicate that the greek people is pure
 
5. lay off my grandfather and go to find your roots


Mr Dorian Big smile

1) first I am not racist I hate racist

2) ofcourse were/are Albanians but fact is ortodhoks chams are   assimilated with time here.

3) It is Crap of year Confused, Arvanitet are puro Albanian by antropology, linguistic.

We (all the Albanians) used to be called "Arberesh" or "Arbanit" in the medevil period, the people that moved to Italy kept the original name, the people that moved to Greece changed the name a little bit because the "b" is "v" in Greek, so instead of Arbanite it came to be Arvanite.....and this all historian greeks and evropians know.

4) sure? Tongue ok...

5) good Sleepy

God bless you!, good luck


 
1. yeah...Confused
 
2. I didn't get it
 
3. Have any anthropological research about Arvanites of Greece ever taken place? No. They were Greeks from the greater region of Epirus who spoke greek and albanian because of the coexistence with Albanians (or Illyrian elements in the long ago). Albanians and some Greeks consider the Greeks from Albania who came here recently to be Albanians too but they are foolish. Because Albanians don't  accept that a lot of Greeks live in Albania while some Greeks (who are idiots) in Greece don't accept a Greek who was born in Albania, in Canada or in South Africa and speak another language along with the greek.
 
4. you can just surf in the internet
 
5. thanks!
 
Good luck dude!
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Posts: 130 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 08:02
Originally posted by dorian

 
3. Have any anthropological research about Arvanites of Greece ever taken place? No. They were Greeks from the greater region of Epirus who spoke greek and albanian because of the coexistence with Albanians (or Illyrian elements in the long ago). Albanians and some Greeks consider the Greeks from Albania who came here recently to be Albanians too but they are foolish. Because Albanians don't  accept that a lot of Greeks live in Albania while some Greeks (who are idiots) in Greece don't accept a Greek who was born in Albania, in Canada or in South Africa and speak another language along with the greek.
 
 
Dorian you say again crap of craps Sleepy, how old are you?
 
where you learn whith arnavatit? ahahah and another funny you claim that vllach in Albania are greeks but you know in Greece live 350.000 Vllach when you stop their origins.
 
read here:
 
http://www.arbitalia.it/ (here Arbanitet or Arbresh from Italy)
www.arnavutum.com (Arnavut from Turkey)
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Posts: 694 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 08:26

@GoldenBlood
-Can you provide any sources about ancient Epirus and Illyria?I think thats the point of the topic and not nationalistic flamme-wars.

-Plz try keeping a level on the discussion (we can keep our crap for the WC..ok ?)

-My grandma is Vlah. Go tell her she is not Greek and you ll escape with bruises on your right eye .OuchBig smile
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Posts: 781 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 10:09
Goldenblood and Dorian read the AE Code of Conduct and restrain from personal attacks. Moreover the topic is about ancient Epirotans not about modern Greeks and Albanians. Back to the topic now.
A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.
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Posts: 598 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 10:42
Originally posted by Perseas

Goldenblood and Dorian read the AE Code of Conduct and restrain from personal attacks. Moreover the topic is about ancient Epirotans not about modern Greeks and Albanians. Back to the topic now.
 
Fully agree with Perseas. Regarding the ancient Epirotans, as all of you might know, ancient writers/historians provide contradictory facts. Now we should analyse all the data, the linguistic (toponyms, onomastic etc), the archaeologic and the historic documents. Of course in ancient Epirus there were centers of hellenistic culture, the colonies. But there were also other cities, and we know some of the tribes. We should establish a border for Epirus, and then we should analyse the tribes, as they were not the same ethnically and culturally talking.
But just to be clear, they were not modern greek, nor modern albanian, so there is no place for "clever" nationalism here!
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Posts: 1813 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 13:31
Why doesn't anybody mention that Epirus means "continent"? It is not a modern toponym like Emathia etc.

Also check this:

Etymology of the word "Greek"

"O.E. Crecas (pl.), early Gmc. borrowing from L. Grci "the Hellenes," from Gk. Grakoi. Aristotle, who was the first to use Graikhos as equivalent to Hellenes"Meteorologica" I.xiv) wrote that it was the name originally used by Illyrians for the Dorians in Epirus, from Graii, native name of the people of Epirus. "

The text is from Oxfords online etymology dictionary. No propaganda sites here or clever nationalism like someone correctly mentioned

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Greek&searchmode=none


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Posts: 370 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 14:54

The Vlachs have nothing to do with the topic and the vlachs of Greece are latinized Greeks.

Back to the topic..

Epirus was the first home of the Greeks from where they were spread in whole Greece.

In Epirus there was the second most famous oracle of ancient Greece, Dodona.

From Epirus and a local tribe the name "Greeks" derived.

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Posts: 781 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 16:57
Originally posted by Arbλr Z

 
Fully agree with Perseas. Regarding the ancient Epirotans, as all of you might know, ancient writers/historians provide contradictory facts. Now we should analyse all the data, the linguistic (toponyms, onomastic etc), the archaeologic and the historic documents. Of course in ancient Epirus there were centers of hellenistic culture, the colonies. But there were also other cities, and we know some of the tribes. We should establish a border for Epirus, and then we should analyse the tribes, as they were not the same ethnically and culturally talking.
But just to be clear, they were not modern greek, nor modern albanian, so there is no place for "clever" nationalism here!
 
I think you wanted to say Hellenic culture instead of Hellenistic culture.
 
 
 


Edited by Perseas - 01-Jun-2006 at 16:58
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Posts: 598 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 09:39
We are being a bit "closeminded". I believe that in Epirus the Hellenic civilisation confined with the illyrian, and, as in all border areas of the world, the populace was mixed (there were hellenes and illyrians). This seems logical, because, as all of you know, Thucydides in the 5th cent.BC referred to the epirotes as barbarians, which means non-hellenic, or at least mixed population. Now, as I have mentioned it before, the Illyrians were not a totally different ethnic culture, they had almost the same religion with the hellenes (probably using some different names for some of the gods). So, the Dodona oracle was a holy shrine for both entities. Hellenic documents mention also mount Tamaron (Tomorri) as one of the oldest holy places. That mount is still the destination of thousands of pilgrims from all albanian regions and from all the religions in the 22-27august of every year. People sacrify lambs and calfs there, and while they eat the meat, they live the heart and the livers untouched. The costume is very pagan.
Back to the topic, Epirus started to hellenize in the 5th century BC and this process continued. But through the times it remained a land inhabitated by illyrians and hellenes, todays greek and albanians. There has never been an absolute border dividing those entities.
 
A question to the greek fellows of the forum, how do we write and pronounce Achilles Aspetius in ancient greek (please use latin letters, because I still havent learn the greek ones).
Thank you in advance!
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Posts: 2329 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 09:51
Achilefs (Achileus) Aspetios

Edited by Yiannis - 02-Jun-2006 at 09:51
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Posts: 1813 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 10:30
Originally posted by Arbλr Z

We are being a bit "closeminded". I believe that in Epirus the Hellenic civilisation confined with the illyrian, and, as in all border areas of the world, the populace was mixed (there were hellenes and illyrians). This seems logical, because, as all of you know, Thucydides in the 5th cent.BC referred to the epirotes as barbarians, which means non-hellenic, or at least mixed population. Now, as I have mentioned it before, the Illyrians were not a totally different ethnic culture, they had almost the same religion with the hellenes (probably using some different names for some of the gods). So, the Dodona oracle was a holy shrine for both entities. Hellenic documents mention also mount Tamaron (Tomorri) as one of the oldest holy places. That mount is still the destination of thousands of pilgrims from all albanian regions and from all the religions in the 22-27august of every year. People sacrify lambs and calfs there, and while they eat the meat, they live the heart and the livers untouched. The costume is very pagan.
Back to the topic, Epirus started to hellenize in the 5th century BC and this process continued. But through the times it remained a land inhabitated by illyrians and hellenes, todays greek and albanians. There has never been an absolute border dividing those entities.
 
A question to the greek fellows of the forum, how do we write and pronounce Achilles Aspetius in ancient greek (please use latin letters, because I still havent learn the greek ones).
Thank you in advance!


Sure they were mixed populations as well. The thing is that the Illyrian minorities got a Hellinic identity. Don't forget that minorities in all the city states existed. Lydians, Egyptians, Phrygians, Armenians, Assyrians etc did a lot of trading and settled across those kindoms/states. The above minorities though were not considered foreign for some reason. Some people just got a toponymic "surname" along with a greek name e.g "X of Thebes" could be someone of egyptian descend etc.

As for the term barbaric it's missinterpreted often. Barbaric could be an insult, a non civilized person or a person that missbehaves (The term is still used in modern Greek sometimes). The Aetolians for example who were a Hellinic tribe descending from Aetolos (descendand of Deucalion), were called barbarians by the Athenians because they were bellicose.


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Posts: 598 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 11:40
The ancient greeks used to divide their world in two parts, the hellenes, and the barbarians (the foreigners, those who didn't have greek culture and civilisation) the word gained other meanings with the time.
When I was talking about mixed populations, i didnt mean mixed like hellenes marrying illyrians etc. I mean  mixed like one region where you could line no clear border between the ethnicities. The hellenic tribes confined the illyrian ones and viceversa. The Epirus noble families gave their children greek education, and so they started hellenizing, but this dont mean that the populace hellenized entirely. Analogy: Alexander the Macedonian, which of course was educated as a greek and had a hellenic conscience, or Aristotle, one of the most known ancient greek philosophers (from macedonia), by their political opponents (among them a prominent oratorius) were denominated as barbarians, or semi-barbarians. I dont want to doubt about their being hellenes, but this is just to remind that Macedonia or Epirus never were totally greek, but only partially. In Epirus there was a strong Illyrian element (we cannot talk about minorities or majorities) and in Macedonia there was a strong thracian element. So, the people that came from this regions, even though they could be pureblood hellenes, could be labelled as "barbarians" or "semi-barbarians".
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