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Flipper
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Topic: Epirotans were Greeks or Illyrians ? Posted: 05-May-2007 at 05:23 |
Olvios has right...Max Muller is over 100 years old source before the
excavations in Epirus were made. + He doesn't say they were Illyrians
either so...
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Flipper
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Posted: 05-May-2007 at 05:27 |
Originally posted by GoldenBlood
olvios what joke...i am posting ancient historians that lived when were that time epriotet and you post joke from pseudo-historians that writet last 200 years.
I can post like you handres article that writet all europeans that epriotes were illyrian...ok i will post later modern historian like you !!
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Well, the historians he posted are actually ancient as well as recent ones. And he posted something from Strabo that contradicts your earlier text :) Do you want me to do a bio thread about all those and you'll tell me if they are pseudohistorians?
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claedy
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Posted: 05-May-2007 at 08:32 |
Originally posted by Giannis
Pelasgian->Illyrian(3kingdomsIllyrian-Epirotean-Makedhonian,one nation=Illyrian)->Albanian
go on make us lough .. thats what you are excelent about, well done
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do ypu realy believe that Epirus was ancient greek? muahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahhahaahhahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahhah
what a joke
you are shoking!
look just to put you greeks out of your deepest misories!
just because you were lucky to occupy and sustain until present day the territories of Epirus and Makedhonia does not mean that you also have to justify this criminal act and excuse it by falcifying the historty like you are doing now!
dont you see that your pseudoexcavations are a constructed myth, and that everything you claim to have found, is indeed a poor attempt by you!
do you realy think it will be this easy to lie
none of the finds that asociate those to regions with ther ancient greeknes is credible!
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olvios
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Posted: 05-May-2007 at 08:53 |
Archaeological digs in Greece are done by British,Germans,Australians and other nationalities not only Greeks. For Example the Pella curse tablet that signifies the greek dicalect spoken by macedons and epirots
The tab has been dated by the original publishers to the "Mid-4th century BC or slightly earlier (letter forms, spelling)". Prof. Edmonds of Bryn Mawr College prefers a 3rd century BC date.
The former opinion is supported by the Oxford Classical Dictionary, in which Olivier Masson writes: "Yet in contrast with earlier views which made of it {i.e. Macedonian} an
Aeolic dialect (O.Hoffmann compared Thessalian) we must by now think of
a link with North-West Greek (Locrian, Aetolian, Phocidian, Epirote).
This view is supported by the recent discovery at Pella of a curse
tablet (4th cent. BC) which may well be the first 'Macedonian' text
attested (provisional publication by E.Voutyras; cf. the Bulletin
Epigraphique in Rev. Et. Grec. 1994, no.413); the text includes an
adverb "opoka" which is not Thessalian." (OCD, 1996, pp 905, 906).
Of the same opinion is James L. O'Neil's (of the University of Sydney) presentation at the 2005 Conference of the Australasian Society for Classical Studies, entitled "Doric Forms in Macedonian Inscriptions" (abstract): "A
fourth‐century BC curse tablet from Pella shows word forms which are
clearly Doric, but a different form of Doric from any of the west Greek
dialects of areas adjoining Macedon. Three other, very brief, fourth
century inscriptions are also indubitably Doric. These show that a
Doric dialect was spoken in Macedon, as we would expect from the West
Greek forms of Greek names found in Macedon. And yet later Macedonian
inscriptions are in Koine avoiding both Doric forms and the Macedonian
voicing of consonants. The native Macedonian dialect had become
unsuitable for written documents."
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claedy
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Posted: 05-May-2007 at 11:28 |
Originally posted by olvios
Archaeological digs in Greece are done by British,Germans,Australians and other nationalities not only Greeks.
For Example the Pella curse tablet that signifies the greek dicalect spoken by macedons and epirots
The tab has been dated by the original publishers to the "Mid-4th century BC or slightly earlier (letter forms, spelling)". Prof. Edmonds of Bryn Mawr College prefers a 3rd century BC date.
The former opinion is supported by the Oxford Classical Dictionary, in which Olivier Masson writes: "Yet in contrast with earlier views which made of it {i.e. Macedonian} an Aeolic dialect (O.Hoffmann compared Thessalian) we must by now think of a link with North-West Greek (Locrian, Aetolian, Phocidian, Epirote). This view is supported by the recent discovery at Pella of a curse tablet (4th cent. BC) which may well be the first 'Macedonian' text attested (provisional publication by E.Voutyras; cf. the Bulletin Epigraphique in Rev. Et. Grec. 1994, no.413); the text includes an adverb "opoka" which is not Thessalian." (OCD, 1996, pp 905, 906).
Of the same opinion is James L. O'Neil's (of the University of Sydney) presentation at the 2005 Conference of the Australasian Society for Classical Studies, entitled "Doric Forms in Macedonian Inscriptions" (abstract): "A fourth‐century BC curse tablet from Pella shows word forms which are clearly Doric, but a different form of Doric from any of the west Greek dialects of areas adjoining Macedon. Three other, very brief, fourth century inscriptions are also indubitably Doric. These show that a Doric dialect was spoken in Macedon, as we would expect from the West Greek forms of Greek names found in Macedon. And yet later Macedonian inscriptions are in Koine avoiding both Doric forms and the Macedonian voicing of consonants. The native Macedonian dialect had become unsuitable for written documents."
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i didnt imply that those people who caried out the act were greek at all.. i said a greek sponsored efort, that will only have one outcome, that demandeed and payed off from the greek governmenet!
so b*** s***
and am sure the findings are lies.. or their interpretetion, indeed a misinterpretation as always, to suit you best
so no
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olvios
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Posted: 05-May-2007 at 11:32 |
So all the millions of archaeologists all Greek,Latin,Persian,hindu.... texts and archaeological finds in all universities on planet earth are lying for millenia to damage albania throughout world history?
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Byzantine Emperor
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Posted: 05-May-2007 at 11:40 |
Okay everyone, cool it with the "hahahahahaha's", "muhahahahahaha's", and profanity. If this turns into one big fight, which is well on the way, it will be closed. I don't see how a flame war could have been avoided anyways considering the subject matter.
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red clay
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Posted: 05-May-2007 at 11:40 |
claedy wrote-
didnt imply that those people who caried out the act were greek at all.. i said a greek sponsored efort, that will only have one outcome, that demandeed and payed off from the greek governmenet!
so b*** s***
and am sure the findings are lies.. or their interpretetion, indeed a misinterpretation as always, to suit you best
so no.
Whoa Big Fella! First, it's possible to make that statement in a more diplomatic fashion
Second, when you do make statements like that, diplomatic or otherwise, sources are in order. If you don't agree with something just calling it a lie or a hoax won't wash. Sources, sources will keep the discussion fair and continuing.
Edited by red clay - 05-May-2007 at 11:42
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
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Dawn
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Posted: 05-May-2007 at 11:42 |
To add to my colleges comments - PLAY NICE GENTLEMEN!
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olvios
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Posted: 05-May-2007 at 11:44 |
None of the sources we provided have been debunked and the fact that epirotes were greeks remain. To prove otherwise one to have to debunk or erase the scientific finds of archaeology in the context of millions of evidence or proof.
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red clay
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Posted: 05-May-2007 at 11:57 |
Originally posted by olvios
None of the sources we provided have been debunked and the fact that epirotes were greeks remain. To prove otherwise one to have to debunk or erase the scientific finds of archaeology in the context of millions of evidence or proof. |
Considering universal agreement among scientists on any subject is a near impossibility, there are, I'm sure, conflicting studies and opinions. Posting some of those would give new ground for discussion and comparison. Note!! I said discussion, see my signature.
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
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olvios
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Posted: 05-May-2007 at 12:02 |
I am still waiting for knowledge on the other part to start weighing the scales.
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olvios
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Posted: 05-May-2007 at 12:05 |
The conflicting studies and opinions exist of course and
are on the exact form of greek dialect and wording like syntax and grammar of norhtwest greek not their ancient greek ethnicity.
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Nikas
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Posted: 08-May-2007 at 03:20 |
Florus Book I XIII
18. Next followed the Tarentine War, in name and title a single campaign, but manifold in it's victories; for it involved as it were in a single ruin alike the Campanians, the Apulians and the Lucanians and the Tarentines, who were the original cause of it, in fact, the whole of Italy, and besides all these, Pyrrhus, the most renowed ruler in Greece"
"yet afterwards, when this same king Pyrrhus had twice had his camp captured and had been twice wounded and had been driven as fugitiive over sea and and back to his own land of Greece."
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Flipper
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Posted: 08-May-2007 at 06:49 |
Originally posted by Nikas
Florus Book I XIII
18. Next followed the Tarentine War, in name and title a single campaign, but manifold in it's victories; for it involved as it were in a single ruin alike the Campanians, the Apulians and the Lucanians and the Tarentines, who were the original cause of it, in fact, the whole of Italy, and besides all these, Pyrrhus, the most renowed ruler in Greece"
"yet afterwards, when this same king Pyrrhus had twice had his camp captured and had been twice wounded and had been driven as fugitiive over sea and and back to his own land of Greece." |
Welcome Nikas! Very nice alternative source. Lets not forget that the Latins knew the Greeks very well. Already from the 11th century BC when the Greki migrated to Southern Italy. And who were the Greki? They were a sub division of the tribe of Selloi, keepers of Dodona in Epirus.
Edited by Flipper - 08-May-2007 at 06:51
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olvios
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Posted: 11-May-2007 at 18:01 |
Quote:
where it was fordable, and with the horse in several places, so that the Greeks, fearing to be surrounded, were obliged to retreat, and Pyrrhus, perceiving this and being much surprised, bade his foot
officers draw their men up in line of battle,
| Epirotan Army of Pyrrhus a greek army. Quote:
while equal discouragement and terror prevailed among the Greeks,
until Pyrrhus, understanding what had happened, rode about the army
with his face bare, stretching out his hand to his soldiers, and
telling them aloud it was he.. | Again Epirotan Army of Pyrrhus a greek army. Quote:
and others brought him news out of Greece that Ptolemy, called Ceraunus, was slain in a fight, and his army cut in pieces by the Gauls
| Ptolemy
Ceraunus was slained in Macedonia from Gauls and from Macedonia the
news came to Pyrrhus. Plutarch obviously considers Macedonia as part of
Greece. Plutarch's Lives - Pyrrhus Edited by A.H. Clough
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Nikas
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Posted: 14-May-2007 at 01:30 |
Thanks Flipper...some more Latins:
"For if all the wars which we have carried on against the Greeks are to be despised, then let the triumph of Marcus Curius over king Pyrrhus be derided; and that of Titus Flamininus over Philip; and that of Marcus Fulvius over the Aetolians; and that of Lucius Paullus over king Perses; and that of Quintus Metellus over the false Philip; and that of Lucius Mummius over the Corinthians. But, if all these wars were of the greatest importance, and if our victories in them were most acceptable, then why are the Asiatic nations and that Asiatic enemy despised by you? But, from our records of ancient deeds; I see that the Roman people carried on a most important war with Antiochus; the conqueror in which war, Lucius Scipio, who had already gained great glory when acting in conjunction with his brother Publius, assumed the same honour himself by taking a surname from Asia, as his brother did, who, having subdued Africa, paraded his conquest by the assumption of the name of Africanus. [32] And in that war the renown of your ancestor Marcus Cato was very conspicuous; but he, if he was, as I make no doubt that he was, a man of the same character as I see that you are, would never have gone to that war, if he had thought that it was only going to be a war against women. Nor would the senate have prevailed on Publius Africanus to go as lieutenant to his brother, when he himself; a little while before, having forced Hannibal out of Italy, having driven him out of Africa, and having crushed the power of Carthage, had delivered the republic from the greatest dangers, if that war had not been considered an important and formidable war."
Cicero, Orations
Pyrrhus, Philip, Perseus, Aetolians, Corinthians..the whole kit and kaboodle, Greeks and more Greeks..
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Flipper
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Posted: 14-May-2007 at 03:40 |
Very nice source once again...
Now that the Aetolians are mentioned...I don't think there was any other nation that was hated so much by the rest of the Hellens like the Aetolians. Ironically though their significance has been so small that nobody cared to give them so much attention and make them non-Greeks. I don't think any other tribe has been called so many names like they did.
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Guests
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Posted: 14-May-2007 at 11:05 |
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Flipper
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Posted: 14-May-2007 at 18:15 |
Are you serious? 1) This is a home made youtube video. 2) It is about Kastrioti who became a leader of a resistance in the area of Albania AND neighbouring Epirus. 3) You are more than 2000 years old late considering the matter we are discussing.
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