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The Battle Of Diu, 1509

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snowybeagle View Drop Down
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  Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Battle Of Diu, 1509
    Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 06:55
Did Portuguese fleet meet the best warships her enemies could have fielded?

Did Egypt and Ottoman have better warships in the Mediterranean?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 08:54
No, Portugesee ships were a true military expedition, but the local ships and armament - as gun were not so developed.
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  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 12:15

  Portuguese navy had superior ships in number and power and the Ottoman and Memlukes were not  make a serious attempt  to take control over Indian ocean but I think it  was a critical  battle.

the Portuguese  had 18 ships aginst 12 for others allies.

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  Quote Viriato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 14:53

First let me apologize for my English.

 

After the Portuguese arrived to Indic Ocean and because of the disrupt they caused in the international commerce, the Sultan of Cairo, after threaten with destruction of Santo Sepulcro in Jerusalem, decide to build a fleet in the Red Sea and to expel the Portuguese.

 

Is almost certain that the Venices government help, with specialist carpenters, cannon builders and Dalmatics wood (part of this wood was capture by ships of Ordem de Malta, command by a Portuguese noble, so the fleet was smaller than planed).

 

These ships were of good quality, with  artillery equall to those of the Portuguese fleet, with quality and expertise crews and a good (and veteran) commander (Mir-Hocem).

 

At Diu it was reinforced with Diu's fleet (4 big naus and numerous small ships) and terrestrial fortifications.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Diu :

The spoils of the battle also included three royal flags of the Mamlk Sultan of Cairo, that were sent to Portugal and are even today displayed in the Convento de Cristo, spiritual home of the Knights Templar.

 

It was, from the tactical point of view, a battle of annihilation and, from the strategic point of view - allow absolute naval domain during one century of Portuguese (and European until 2WW) and affect the prestige of Turks in Europe.

There was several others battles with Turks forces (and in 1517 a Portuguese fleet attack Jud, in the Red Sea!), specially the second battle of Diu (1538), were the Portuguese had the honor of fight against janissaries it was an epic struggle.

IIRC a Portuguese fleet wins a battle against a Turk fleet that was going from Red Sea to Persian Golf, to fight against Safavid Iran.

               



Edited by Viriato
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  Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2006 at 02:30

If the Portuguese had superior naval warships and tactics over her foes in the Indian ocean, did that mean they could also won if they had fought against the same foes in the Mediterranean?

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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2006 at 06:57
Hi,
No the question is compeletly different.
1) In the Med the Ottoman are close to their bases and that is where the
galleys are good.
2) In Diu, the Ottoman fought in high sea, which is less likely in the Med.
Near the shores, the galley can fully use their advantages (lightness,
speed, not being dependent to the wind...).
3) Most likely, in the Med the Ottoman would have find a fort or have
guns on the shores to back them and there again, it would have helped.
Thus the result may have been different. Logically...
Actually, when the portugese prince Luis brought his warships to help his
uncle Charles V against Tunis in 1535, it was a major victory.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2006 at 09:05
The sailing ships especially ocean-going galleons, caravelas were far better as gun platforms
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  Quote Viriato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2006 at 09:42

First things first

No doubt that the Portuguese navy was, during the XV-XVI centuries, the most advance (and first) oceanic power (except maybe China, even if they do not want use the power and operate only in their coastal waters). But the  ocean-going galleons / caravelas as gun platforms technology was just starting and the guns did not have much power, they did not have doctrine / tactics, etc

In Diu, the Ottoman fought in high sea,...

No, the battle was inside the estuary there was a small exchange of gunfire a day before outside the estuary and only against the small ships and the naus of Diu, but without consequences - with the Turkish-Gujarat  ships very near shore, without moving and with support of guns on the shores (and soldiers inside the ships), the Portuguese fleet had to entry the estuary (protect by forts), fire the guns and board the enemy ships (and win hand to hand fight).      

...portugese prince Luis brought his warships to help his uncle Charles V against Tunis in 1535...

The commander of the Portuguese fleet was D. Antnio de Saldanha and included the galleon S.Joo (nickname Botafogo or putfire), that with 366 guns (many of them very small) was the biggest warship in that time.



Edited by Viriato
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  Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2006 at 16:06
I think Viriato took the word from my mouth...! Thief! Wink
 
In overal, the Portuguese had:
- Better ships (they were in the vanguard of ship-building technology - S. Joo "Botafogo" and Santa Catarina do Monte Sinai are just two examples);
- Better guns and better gunners (many of them Germans living in Lisbon, and also portuguese and, later on, even Indians from Goa whose workmanship was legendary).
 
In this particular battle Portuguese ships, well manned very well armed, worked, yes they did, as gun platforms (like the already mentioned S Joo "Botafogo" in the capture of Tunis).
 
But one must also take into account the fact that:
1 - the Portuguese were not divided (the Muslims were a conglomerate of 2 Kingdom's fleets under the same command, and they amounted to severel dozen ships, not just 12 as said earlier);
2 - the Portuguese had better officers and were better fighting men;
3 - the Portuguse CO was determined to avenge his son's death at Chaul, in 1509;
4 - the battle was preceded by a careful planning (this was unusual as the Portuguese in the East used a "rush forward and kill'em all" tactic up until the late 17th c.)
 
So, although at a first look the Portuguese were fighting agains terrible odds (in a 1:10, or more, man-to-man relation), their military/strategic capabilities gave them superiority over their enemies.
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  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2006 at 04:39
I'm with Sikander, the problem here is that the anglosaxon historians traditionally don't know or don't want believe the good quality of the iberians sea advances, and those theories a hard of expel; the portuguese had good ships, good cannons, doctrine for use the firepower (usually combinated with assault of course)... And as say Sikander, they were 18 ships against 100 (right only 12 trully powerful)

A great description:

http://www.ancruzeiros.pt/anchistoria-comb-1509.html




Edited by Ikki - 01-Aug-2006 at 04:51
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  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2007 at 10:15

Sorry for bringing up an old thread but I think this is a very important one for the sake of discussion.

The Egyptians used Venetian canons which were large and not very accurate but causes devistation only when it hits the target which is very unlikely. The Portugeses were becoming rich through the expeditions to the spice islands. Their ships and guns were modeled after the Arabian ships and were more professionally built.

Since the Indian ships were not of real use since they did not use artillery, it was a real novelty in India at the time, they would've probably caused more harm then good.
 
 
After detecting the Portuguese, who approached from Cochin to the south, and fearing their technical superiority, the Egyptians decided to take advantage of the port of Diu and its fort, which had its own artillery. It was therefore decided to stay anchored at this port and await an attack from the Portuguese. This may also have been due to the training of the Egyptians/Turks, who were used to the more sheltered bays in the Mediterranean. There they also relied upon land-based artillery reinforcements to defeat the enemy.
 
These Portuguese ships had guns of greater caliber, better artillery crews, were better manned and better built. The Portuguese naval infantry also had an advantage over the Egyptians/Turks, not only because they were heavily armed and equipped (armor, arquebuses and a type of grenade made of clay with gunpowder inside), but also because they were seasoned professional seamen, mostly warriors with superiority over the Turks in physical strength and combat skills.
 


Edited by andrew - 11-Aug-2007 at 10:25
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