Northern Ameridians

Originally posted by oktli Hello everyone, Im new so go easy on me...With all due respect to my fellow native americans friends, I think that climate had to do a lot with the development of the North Amerindians and their cultures. I would say that the Mesoamericans had more success when it comes to architecture because they had much better climate to deal with. It is easier to work in a warm climate than in a cold one, specially if u plan to build pyramids...dont u think?

Hmm, no ... it's probably easier to do heavy work in a cool climate. You don't get exhausted so quickly and stay relatively refreshed for a long time.

The main reason is probably that the southern cultures were the ones who developed domesticated plants and agriculture early on, while its expansion north was slow (some estimate that groups like the Iroqouis and Algonkians had only been agricultural societies for about 500 years prior to European arrival, whereas in Mexico and the Yucatan, agriculture might go back before even the Olmec, several thousands of years in all). Also, there was less innovation in agricultural techniques designed to maximize production - if crops came up short for northern populations, there was plenty of other food (game and wild plants) to rely on, but southern populations faced a catastrophe if they didn't have enough food at harvest time. This meant that they needed an organized society and they were always striving to improve agricultural techniques.

You see the same thing happening in the Old World, up to a point - agriculture first happens in the Fertile Crescent, and for thousands of years, the centres of urban civilization are in the Fertile Crescent and Egypt, for more or less the same reasons.

Originally posted by oktli With all due respect Mr. Edgewaters, I have worked in construcion in cool� climates, lets say here in Chicago where I reside right now, and It's just impossible to be outside doing construction with very cold weather... You would freeze specially in Winter...I still hold my position...its a lot better to work in summer, warm climates than in cold ones...with all due respect.

Well, in winter it might be a little uncomfortable, but not enough to prevent people from building large buildings (just look at the London or New York skylines, and contrast with Mexico City). Some of the most famous skyscraper ironworkers - the ones who walk the beams - are the Mohawk Iroqouis, for some reason they seem to be particularly skilled at working high up on the beams. Mohawks were prominent especially in the building of such structures as the WTC and the Empire State Building. The cold didn't stop them doing that (and it gets very very cold way up there), so it certainly wouldn't stop them from building a pyramid, if they had the desire to do that. They just didn't have any reason to - nor did they have the excess population to do so.

Well then, you might have some cultural insights into why they did build pyramids in Mexico and the Yucatan, but it wouldn't grant any special understanding of people in more temperate climes who didn't. If people built pyramids just because it was warm, then there would be pyramids in all the warm places - South Africa, Brazil, etc. The reason the Iroqouis and others didn't build pyramids was, firstly, because they didn't stay in one spot more than 10 years at a time; second, they didn't have the manpower; third, they didn't have organized religion.

If you've grown up in a cooler climate, you get very used to it, to the point that the difficulties that people of warmer climates have in the cold becomes almost comical. Similarly, people from cooler climates often have a very difficult time working in the heat (some Inuit for instance have been actually known to suffocate to death in temperatures no higher than 90 degrees F).

It's true that construction work often halts in the winter (more because of the contraction and expansion effect on materials than because of anything else), but that is only a few months of the year. Summer, fall, and spring are all amenable to labour.
    

Edited by edgewaters - 22-Jun-2006 at 02:19

I think that this discussion has focused too much on agriculture for the basis of civilization and complex societal traditions. Let's look to the Northwest coast of North America for an example of complex societies that arose completely independent of agriculture.

Edited by Laine - 12-Jul-2006 at 04:10

Quite impressive indeed, I can recall 3 times that the Tlingits defeated European powers in major battles.

Originally posted by Bonde Is the natives that lived at Haida in 1795 really Tlingit? I would personally say that those who returned fire against the British vessel Union was the Haida native people and not the Tlingit. Or have I understand this wrongly?

    



It was the Haida that returned fire at the Union, as I mentioned. (" ...in 1795 the British vessel Union fired its cannon at one Haida village .... to their suprise, the Haida returned fire!")

I'm just painting a general picture of native culture in the northwest, as I outlined in the first sentence, using examples from both cultures.
    
    
    

Edited by edgewaters - 26-Jul-2006 at 13:52